"To save all sentient beings...."

[Jundo]

Also, as a side note, the original bodhisattva vows, in their older format were entirely focused on "people" and they stated:

"I vow to enable people to be released from the truth of suffering. I vow to enable people to understand the truth of the origin of suffering. I vow to enable people to peacefully settle down in the truth of the path leading to the cessation of suffering. I vow to enable people to enter the cessation of suffering, that is, nirvana." (from the Bodhisattva Jewel Necklace Sutra).
""

Hmmm. I looked at the original, and I do not see that it states the subject as "people" or "sentient beings" or anyone. It says (I believe that I am looking at the right portion of the Sutra) ...

所謂四弘誓，未度苦諦令度苦諦、未解集諦令解集諦、未安道諦令安道諦、未得涅槃令得涅槃。

The Four Great Vows are: to eliminate suffering although it cannot be eliminated, to realize the cause [of suffering) although it cannot be realized, to realize the path although it cannot be realized, and to realize nirvana although it cannot be realized.

The version we chant today is ...

「四弘誓願文：しぐせいがんもん 」
衆生無辺誓願度：しゅじょうむへんせいがんどー
煩悩無尽誓願断：ぼんのうむじんせいがんだん
法門無量誓願学：ほうもんむりょうせいがんがく
仏道無上誓願成：ぶつどうむじょうせいがんじょ う
Shigu Seiganmon
Shujô muhen seigan do,
Bonnô mujin seigan dan,
Hômon muryô seigan gaku,
Butsudô mujô seigan jô.


It now contains the phrase 衆生 or "Shujou" which is "all living beings," although usually taken to mean "sentient beings" ...

衆生

Pronunciations

Basic Meaning: sentient being(s)
Senses:

A being; living being; all living beings. This term has pre-Buddhist roots in the Chinese classics, such as the Liji 禮記 「衆生必死、必死歸土」 and Zhuangzi 莊子 「幸能正生、以正衆生」. It was used to translate the Sanskrit sattva (Skt. jana; Tib. skye bo, sems can). A creature (Skt. prajā; Tib. skye dgu). [Charles Muller, M. Mohr; source(s): Nakamura, Stephen Hodge, JEBD, Yokoi, Iwanami]

All beings, including all beings in the six planes of life 六趣. In Buddhist scriptures, sentient beings are mentioned in contrast to buddhas, as those who are still bound in the suffering of saṃsāra, who are not yet enlightened; in this meaning, synonymous with 凡夫, which means 'regular person,' or 'worldling.' On the other hand, it is the awareness that is present in sentient beings—exactly their 'sentiency' that is the quality of Buddhahood itself. Therefore there is the Mahāyāna doctrine of 'all sentient beings are originally buddhas.' [Charles Muller]
After the time of Xuanzang 玄奘, this term was translated into Chinese as 有情 'having sentiency.' In the Nirvāṇa-sūtra, it is clearly stated that sentient beings means all things, even those things that we would normally consider inanimate, such as minerals, and that all of these things possess the Buddha-nature. [Charles Muller]
Produced in great number; manifold production; myriad activities. 「言衆生者、諸現行也。」 〔梵網經古迹記 HBJ 3.428a12〕 [Charles Muller]
(Skt. praṇin, jagat, pudgala; jaga, jana-kāya, janatā, jana-pada, jantu, janman, jāta, tiryañc, dehin, nṛ, parṣad, paśu, praṇi-bhūta, bahu-jana, bahūnām, bāla, bodhi-sattva, bhūta, manuṣya, manuṣya-bhūta, mahā-jana, rāṣṭra, loka, loka-bandhu, śarīrin, sattva-dhātu, sattva-nikāya, sattva-nimitta, sattva-rāśi, sattva-loka, sattva-vikṛti-pratisaṃyukta, sattvâkara, sattvâkhya, sattvârtha, saṃtāna, saṃniveśa, sarva-jagad-upajīvya, sarva-dehin, sarva-sattva, sārtha) [Charles Muller; source(s): Hirakawa]
http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?88.xml+id(%27b8846-751f%27)

Why did 衆生 come to mean "all sentient beings" rather than "all living beings"? There are many version here, sometimes where it is translated as "sentient beings," but sometimes as "living beings" or "creatures."

https://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/vows.html

Tanahashi Sensei says this ...

beings: 衆生—zhongsheng in Chinese and shujō in Japanese— literally means “multitude of lives” or “many living beings.” awaken them.”

So, really it is "all beings" better than "sentient beings."

Gassho, J
stlah

[Bion]

Hmmm. I looked at the original, and I do not see that it states the subject as "people" or "sentient beings" or anyone. It says (I believe that I am looking at the right portion of the Sutra) ...

所謂四弘誓，未度苦諦令度苦諦、未解集諦令解集諦、未安道諦令安道諦、未得涅槃令得涅槃。

The Four Great Vows are: to eliminate suffering although it cannot be eliminated, to realize the cause [of suffering) although it cannot be realized, to realize the path although it cannot be realized, and to realize nirvana although it cannot be realized.

Just to clarify, I quoted there the verse as Okumura Roshi presents it. I don't know if it's his own translation or he uses someone else's. He references Taisho, vol.24, page 1013, from Bosatsu Yōraku Hongōkyō.

Gassho

[Junsho]

Reading this discussion, I am starting to consider If should I learn japanese, chinese, sanskit, pali etc or continuing being an illiterate student in these languages. Everything just look like an alphabet soup to me.

Homemade-healthy-alphabet-soup.jpg

Gassho!
SatLah

[Jundo]

Reading this discussion, I am starting to consider If should I learn japanese, chinese, sanskit, pali etc or continuing being an illiterate student in these languages. Everything just look like an alphabet soup to me.

Says the typical European who probably speaks 3 languages and 4 local dialects. Most of my fellow Americans can't even manage just English!

Gassho, J
stlah

[Jundo]

Just to clarify, I quoted there the verse as Okumura Roshi presents it. I don't know if it's his own translation or he uses someone else's. He references Taisho, vol.24, page 1013, from Bosatsu Yōraku Hongōkyō.

Gassho

That's where I found it. Vol 24 Page 1013 Line a20-22 here in the Taisho ...

TAISHO LINK

所謂四弘誓，未度苦諦令度苦諦、未解集諦令解集諦、未安道諦令安道諦、未得涅槃令得涅槃。

image.png

There is no subject, neither "people" or "sentient beings" or "beings." Okumura Roshi must have added "people" in his own translation.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Houzan]

Thanks everyone. Your answers are very helpful to see my question from different perspectives.
I also read the thread with a similar question that Hōzan shared and all the comments are very helpful too.


I still hav the same question that I had from the beginning, though. If (quoting Jundo) "sentient beings are saved when we help them realize such that all already are, and just as importantly, how to live accordingly" how can we save beings that cannot be taught the Dharma (like a suffering animal or a child or simply a person whose situation makes it impossible for them to practice).
Just to be clear my examples in my first post were the first ones that came to my mind but I could have chosen examples unrelated with human actions like a starving deer in the winter or a sick child.
It seems to me that this aspect/interpretation of salvation is only applicable to a very small subgroup of sentient beings (humans able to learn and practice the Dharma), maybe?

Good question. Hmm. In my opinion the approach needs to be “soft”, allowing for several interpretations:

1. If “all sentient beings” include those who cannot learn, and learning the dharma is necessary to be saved, then it follows logically that animals cannot be saved. Logically, it’s simply a mistake. Buddhism is also impermanent and still evolving.

2. The purpose of the statement is to generate the intention, feeling and wish to save all sentient beings. This feeling is very valuable as it helps us see emptiness.

3. “Saving” could also mean the acts of providing food, sheltering, etc, and not only refer to “teach the dharma”.

4. Do animals need to be taught the dharma if they already live intimately in dharma? Maybe all sentient beings don’t need saving.

5. When you save yourself, the whole universe is saved.

Sorry for running long.

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah