"To save all sentient beings...."

[Shoshin]

For what I've understood from what we have been studying and talking about during Ango, "To save all sentient beings" means to help them understand the real nature of suffering, the real nature of Oneness so as the suffering ends.
But we cannot "save all sentient beings" this way. How does the Dharma (the teachings) help a mother cow that cries for her stolen baby? How do we save a drowning child fallen from a migrant boat by teaching them the Dharma?

I'm utterly confused.

Some help, please

Gassho,
Ester

[Houzan]

Good question. My two cents would be this : in zen we do both. In the ultimate sense, a child falling from a boat and drowning is perfect as it is (!!). There is no need to do anything (!!). Sounds terrible, I know, but the point is that there is no one who dies, and dying is no different than being born. The child is never off the boat and never in the water! This trick can be taught. This is saving the poor child and the child’s poor family. BUT, as we live in BOTH ultimate AND relative reality at the same time, we ALSO do everything in our power to get the drowning child up in the boat. This is also saving the poor child and the child’s poor family. We are only halfway there if we only live in ultimate reality, and the essential point of our practice is that we can and should do both.

Bion also brought up a great point recently in a similar discussion, and Jundo expanded on it: when you awaken, the whole universe awakens. Thus you have saved them all. Who is it that awakens? No one. And if no one awakens, everything and everyone awakens.

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/treeleaf/treeleaf-community-topics-about-zen-practice/537110-salvation-of-all-living-beings

Sorry for running long.

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

[Shoshin]

Good question. My two cents would be this : in zen we do both. In the ultimate sense, a child falling from a boat and drowning is perfect as it is (!!). There is no need to do anything (!!). Sounds terrible, I know, but the point is that there is no one who dies, and dying is no different than being born. The child is never off the boat and never in the water! This trick can be taught. This is saving the poor child and the child’s poor family. BUT, as we live in BOTH ultimate AND relative reality at the same time, we ALSO do everything in our power to get the drowning child up in the boat. This is also saving the poor child and the child’s poor family. We are only halfway there if we only live in ultimate reality, and the essential point of our practice is that we can and should do both.

Bion also brought up a great point recently in a similar discussion, and Jundo expanded on it: when you awaken, the whole universe awakens. Thus you have saved them all. Who is it that awakens? No one. And if no one awakens, everything awakens.

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/treeleaf/treeleaf-community-topics-about-zen-practice/537110-salvation-of-all-living-beings

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

Thanks for your answer
So, do you think that the 4 votes refer to both ways of saving all sentient beings or just to the "awaken yourself and therefore all the Universe awakens"?

And thanks for linking the post: I see that the same question was made recently . I'll read it right away

Gassho,
Ester
Satlah

[Houzan]

Thanks for your answer
So, do you think that the 4 votes refer to both ways of saving all sentient beings or just to the "awaken yourself and therefore all the Universe awakens"?

And thanks for linking the post: I see that the same question was made recently . I'll read it right away

Gassho,
Ester
Satlah

I believe it refers to both and all of the interpretations. I am sure however that Jundo or one of the priests in training will give you a better answer

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

[Shoshin]

I believe it refers to both and all of the interpretations. I am sure however that Jundo or one of the priests in training will give you a better answer

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

Thanks
I will move to the previous post on the topic that you shared, read it and perhaps add some question there so as the topic is "centralised" in one only thread and everything is tidy

Gassho,
Ester
Satlah

[Bion]

Hello, again
My two cents are here, but please take them lightly: salvation in Buddhism is not the same as physical or emotional help. Helping someone who is drowning is a kind, compassionate, beneficial action, but not the salvation Buddhism is concerned with. From a buddhist perspective, animals and other sentient beings already live in Zen, or rather are living life as it is, living in the reality of it, but only humans have to make a conscious effort to live like that. We are the ones who need to practice in order to clear our doubts, delusions and live on the basis of awakened understanding of reality. Okumura Roshi says ¨The fact that we cannot control the reality of our lives is the root of the suffering described by the Buddha, which is based on our delusions about and attachment to the ego.¨ This buddhist concept of dukkha (suffering) is not limited to pain, sadness, unhappiness etc. It has to do with impermanence and egolessness and we don't know whether other sentient beings ponder their own nature and mortality, whether they cling to their hopes and aspirations, whether they fight against change, but humans do.
I think the magnitude of the bodhisattva vow aims to awaken us to the reality of interdependence. I vow to care for all beings, because they are not separate from me... I vow to share the dharma even with a tree, if I should see that tree as a separate being. I vow to cut the delusion of division, so if there are infinite beings, there are infinite delusions about separation to be destroyed. I think the vow has to do with us , the ones taking it and how we exist in the world, more than with the beings we perceive as external who need the saving.
Also, as a side note, the original bodhisattva vows, in their older format were entirely focused on "people" and they stated:
"I vow to enable people to be released from the truth of suffering. I vow to enable people to understand the truth of the origin of suffering. I vow to enable people to peacefully settle down in the truth of the path leading to the cessation of suffering. I vow to enable people to enter the cessation of suffering, that is, nirvana." (from the Bodhisattva Jewel Necklace Sutra).
I am sure Jundo Roshi will have deeper things to say about this, but I hope this helps a bit too.

Gassho
sat lah

[Housai]

So I feel like the meaning of this can change throughout one's practice.

Some take it in the sense of Christian missionaries going around and preaching the Dharma and saving people by spreading the Buddhadharma.

Some view it as an aspiration which is simply not able to be fulfilled but the aspiration remains regardless.

Some view it as non-nonsensical... how can we save beings that are not separate from ourselves. Or to simply to save oneself is to save everything and everyone...

Some view it as very concrete. If you help people with whatever they need throughout your daily life you are saving them from their small sufferings (a car that needs repair, a mental health crises, a shoulder rub, selling an affordable mattress, cooking a perfect Pizza, pouring a cup of tea)... Simply doing your job...

Some view it as allowing people the space and time to see how their ideas keep them from realizing their original pure and liberated nature

Some people think its like the rapture where the Aliens come and take you up into their spacecraft...

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Onsho]

IMHO.
Though beings numberless. Thats the important part.

Why start? Why try at all? You cant help everyone.

I may not save everyone, but im going to keep trying even with the odds against me.
its not impossible, it just hasnt been done yet. And its going to take all of us, with all our effort.


Gassho
Onsho
SatLah

[Bion]

IMHO.
Though beings numberless. Thats the important part.

Why start? Why try at all? You cant help everyone.

I may not save everyone, but im going to keep trying even with the odds against me.
its not impossible, it just hasnt been done yet. And its going to take all of us, with all our effort.


Gassho
Onsho
SatLah

It took Shakyamuni only himself

Gassho
sat lah

[Jundo]

For what I've understood from what we have been studying and talking about during Ango, "To save all sentient beings" means to help them understand the real nature of suffering, the real nature of Oneness so as the suffering ends.
But we cannot "save all sentient beings" this way. How does the Dharma (the teachings) help a mother cow that cries for her stolen baby? How do we save a drowning child fallen from a migrant boat by teaching them the Dharma?

I'm utterly confused.

Some help, please

Gassho,
Ester

Hi Ester,

I very much agree with Houzan here ...

Good question. My two cents would be this : in zen we do both. In the ultimate sense, a child falling from a boat and drowning is perfect as it is (!!). There is no need to do anything (!!). Sounds terrible, I know, but the point is that there is no one who dies, and dying is no different than being born. The child is never off the boat and never in the water! This trick can be taught. This is saving the poor child and the child’s poor family. BUT, as we live in BOTH ultimate AND relative reality at the same time, we ALSO do everything in our power to get the drowning child up in the boat. We are only halfway there if we only live in ultimate reality, and the essential point of our practice is that we can and should do both.

There is no one to save, no life to be lost, no death ... and one way to save the sentient beings is to show them "no self, no loss, no death." Nobody dies, nothing is lost. I would only disagree that it is only that "drowning is perfect as it is." Well, it is "perfectly what it is" and is as much part of life as birth and everything else ... but more importantly, there is no drowning, no place to fall.

However, yes, there is still loss and death and drowning ... so we should rescue the drowning child from the water so that he does not die.

Both of the above are true, like two sides of a no sided coin.

As to the cow, as I have discussed with you, the place of other animals is a bit ambiguous in traditional Buddhism. Generally, I agree with you that we should move to a world where baby cows are not taken from their mothers.

I also disagree a bit with Bion that "salvation in Buddhism was not about physical or emotional help." I think that, these days, Buddhism sometimes gets lost into being a self-help psychological therapy, which robs Buddhism of its real power (which is the above absolute salvation.) However, it ALSO includes physical help and emotional help (e.g., showing caring and compassion) when we can. Saving the drowning boy is precisely Buddhist compassion too. So is offering medical aid, encouragement and friendship, food and shelter, etc. This is also saving the poor child and the child’s poor family. Although, in the relative we cannot take away someone's "pain, sadness, unhappiness," and although in the absolute there never was from the start any "pain, sadness, unhappiness" ... still, it is part of our Buddhist practice to sooth the pain and sadness of someone if we can. They are separate from me, yet not, and thus there is nobody to comfort, yet there is and we should.

Now, the 4 Vows say that it is impossible to rescue all because endless sentient beings, yet it is possible because (in the absolute) there were never any sentient beings in need of rescue !! All is whole and rescued from the start! We should realize this ourself, and also help other suffering sentient beings realize so (they are suffering because they do not know the wholeness free of rescue) ... but in any case, there is nobody to rescue and nothing to rescue from (in the absolute). Thus, we should realize for ourself, and help others realize, that there never was "me vs. others."

In the relative world, sadly, we also cannot rescue all the sentient beings, all the drowning children. Nonetheless, we should still try to rescue as many as we can.

It took Shakyamuni only himself

This is true. Shakyamuni realized that the whole world was realized with his realization. There was nobody not enlightened. And yet, and yet ... there are so many people who do not realize so and are/were suffering, so Shakyamuni got up from under the tree and set to work, walking here and there, preaching and helping.

Gassho, J
stlah