Sneezing in the Zendo

[Taigen]

Hey folks,

Lighthearted question today: I woke up last night with the hiccups and found myself wondering, “what if this happened at the Zendo?” So, what do you do if you’re sitting in person and sneeze/cough/get the hiccups/experience other involuntary bodily sound in an actual Zendo or monastery setting? No deep philosophical question, just don’t want to embarrass myself when Treeleaf opens its Minnesota branch office.

Gassho,
Benjamin
satlah

[Bion]

I dare say, all places have their specific norms, some stricter, some less strict. Master Dogen made it a big point that monks should not disturb others in the hall while in zazen. That included advice not to stretch, yawn, sigh or fan oneself, not dragging the slippers. I can only assume some zendos apply that to all practitioners, lay or ordained.

One zendo's etiquette instructions say ¨If you must cough or sneeze, cover your mouth and resume posture without offering any comment. Avoid any unnecessary actions like scratching that can be overcome by determination.¨

Great Mountain Zen Center instruct the following: ¨Sneeze into your elbow. Wipe your nose into a tissue if necessary; do not blow your nose or sniff repeatedly in the zendo.¨

At Upaya, the approach is as follows: ¨Do not blow your nose or sniffle in the zendo. If you cough or sneeze, do so into your elbow."

I think the overall idea is, if unavoidable, to do it as discreetly as possible, always with utmost care for the rest of the participants, but always best to check beforehand when attending different zendos.

Gassho
sat lah

[Housai]

Yeah it depends where you are. I have been to a place where there was a person crying and sniffling and the monitor said out loud " let it run" and the person was covered with strings of snot by the end of the period.... Other place let you get up in the middle of a period and even lay on your back.....

whats right, whats wrong and who can tell us these things?

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Bion]

whats right, whats wrong and who can tell us these things?

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

I say what's right or wrong is based on the rules of the place one is in and the person to tell us that is whoever is making the rules or whoever is tasked with ensuring they are upheld. Easy one

Gassho
sat lah

[Housai]

I say what's right or wrong is based the rules of the place one is in and the person to tell us that is whoever is making the rules or whoever is tasked with ensuring they are upheld. Easy one

Gassho
sat lah

You my friend are clearly a moral relativist.... when in rome... and render unto ceasar that which is ceasars...

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Bion]

You my friend are clearly a moral relativist.... when in rome... and render unto ceasar that which is ceasars...

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

We’re talking about going to a Zendo or temple, right? In some places I can wear regular clothes, in some I am required to wear lay or monastic robes. Within the Nyohoe places, there are conventions, so even though many shades would be acceptable by the Vinaya for the Okesa, convention might mean I need to abide by the rules of the place, not my preferences or the general rule. Im some sanghas they chant dharanis, we don’t etc .. Every place has its rules, so what’s right in one place might be wrong in another. You know that

Gassho
sat lah

[Jundo]

I care about the other people in the Zendo ... one should not be disturbed whatever the case.

If the person next to you is sneezing and farting and hiccupping, Just Sit. Sit with what is. The disturbance between your own ears is as much a disease as anything that might be caught from the sneeze. Allow and drop one's resistance from mind. I once sat at a Japanese Zendo when the Teacher admitted to sitting a young boy with Tourette's Syndrome who, in the middle of Zazen, would suddenly yell various things. The Teacher said it was our problem only if we make it a problem between our own two ears, not the boy's.

Now, of course, there are health considerations if the person is truly sneezing, so after the Zazen period, I would talk to the person, or the Hall Monitor, about having the person remove themselves from the Zazen Hall. That is a different situation. Monks were supposed to avoid eating garlic and onions, remove themselves to a special room in the monastery for quarantine if sick, wash their bodies, etc. etc. Even so, many did not bathe more than once a week.

The person who may disturb others because of repeated sneezing etc. should remove themself from the Zen Hall until the sneezing etc. stops.

However, the other people on the hearing end ... sit with what is during the time of sitting. No resistance. It is no disturbance except between your own ears.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Housai]

We’re talking about going to a Zendo or temple, right? In some places I can wear regular clothes, in some I am required to wear lay or monastic robes. Within the Nyohoe places, there are conventions, so even though many shades would be acceptable by the Vinaya for the Okesa, convention might mean I need to abide by the rules of the place, not my preferences or the general rule. Im some sanghas they chant dharanis, we don’t etc .. Every place has its rules, so what’s right in one place might be wrong in another. You know that

Gassho
sat lah

But I thought you were representing the Soto-shu way of doing things? What is their policy on sneezing in the zendo?

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

But I thought you were representing the Soto-shu way of doing things? What is their policy on sneezing in the zendo?

I am reminded of Muho's tale of the Rinzai place where he sat for some months ...

... sooner or later you’d get diarrhoea. Each time you have to ask your senpai for permission. If you’re not allowed to go to the toilet, you have no choice but to shit in your pants. But then it’s not, “oh please go take a shower and change your clothes!”. You have to somehow escape behind the hondo and dispose your pants and wash yourself at night in the pond. Ofuro [bath] is only every two weeks. And ofuro for the monks at the bottom of the ladder means you have to wash the backs of your senpai. They enter the ofuro for 10 to 15 minutes, they finish, look at their watch and say, oh there’s no more time, get out. So you don’t even have your ofuro.

Eiheiji, the Soto place is a little easier (from Eat Sleep Sit) ...

... It was a rest day, and that afternoon we were allowed a hot bath for the first time since coming to Eiheiji. In Zen monasteries, bathing takes places only on rest days (days ending in a four or a nine) and not at all during the initial weeks. Until now we had not had so much as a sponge bath or fresh clothes.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Shoshin]

There is a trick to get rid of hiccups instantly. It seems silly but it works.
Lower your head so as your chin touches your chest. You don't need to curve your back, only your neck.
In this position you need to swallow a bit of water (or saliva if you have no water or you are doing zazen).
Bye bye hiccups

Gassho,
Ester
Satlah

[Bion]

But I thought you were representing the Soto-shu way of doing things? What is their policy on sneezing in the zendo?

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

Oh, I do not represent Soto-shu’s way of doing things. I represent the way we do things here and the way my teacher wants things done in our sangha.
On the other hand, even regarding what’s written down as the “proper” way of doing things in Soto-shu’s manual, it is specified clearly that this is a standardized way, but ultimately every sangha will have their own way in certain aspects and every abbot can make specific rules for their own place. Even a Soto-shu affiliated priest, if they go to a particular place, will follow the etiquette of that place.

Gassho
sat lah

[Taigen]

Thank you Jundo, Matt, and Bion for entertaining my semi-serious inquiry! It makes sense to prioritize not disturbing others as much as possible. And thank you Ester for the helpful advice! Might come in handy!

Gassho,
Benjamin
SatLah