Curious about the training

[Ester]

Hi!
I'm very curious about the training that Treeleaf unsuis undergo.
Appart from studying the Dharma and learning how to conduct ceremonies I believe that novices are trained to be able to support their communities and individuals in different ways. Is that correct?
Do you learn how to support people that are struggling with their daily lives?
Do you learn specific things like caring for the dying or supporting people that struggle with addictions?

Thanks so much!
Gassho,
Ester
Satlah

[Ester]

Hi!
I'm curious about what do zen priests wear in Japan and in the rest of the world when you are in your daily lives.
And, what do you wear when you are not at home cooking, or shopping or at your jobs, you are not with the sangha either but doing other kind of "priest stuff" like caring for the dying, giving a talk at a school or joining a demonstration about some social issue?
I'm curious about the colors of the attire in our sangha and others too.

Edit: I just realised that this thread is for questions about Jukai, Ango and Rohatsu.
Should I move it somewhere else?



Thanks!
Gassho
Ester
Satlah

[Bion]

Hi, Ester! First of all, I moved your 2 post to the Zen Practice section.
To answer your question: we do have dharma study, and quite a hefty list of reading materials, which we also comment on and can discuss with Jundo and amongst ourselves, we learn all the forms that pertain to ceremonies, zendo activities etc, and we actively learn how to support the sangha by supporting the sangha right here, on and off this forum, through live events, meetings, private discussions, organising and hosting retreats, attending sesshins outside of Treeleaf when possible, and taking special courses as well whenever there is a chance. Pretty much whatever presents itself to us. Hopefully you all can see the active involvement and fruits of this training.
Hope that answers your first question

As for the second one: it depends on the person and location. My friends in Japan are usually in samue (monk's work clothes) or if really informal, in regular clothes. Many of them wear a rakusu quite often, not just in formal settings. In the west, I think folks are more western. I won't speak for anyone but myself. I usually wear samue, jinbei in summer, I have a few robes that I wear that come from the chan tradition... If I'm off to the supermarket or to see friends, I might be in samue or regular clothes. I wear the rakusu whenever appropriate, for example when I work on making podcasts for the sangha, if I'm off to the park in spring for zazen, I carry the rakusu with me whenever I'm traveling anywhere...

Gassho
sat lah

[Kotei]

Hi Ester,

Dharma, History and Ceremony studies are the more formalized part of training.
The part you are mentioning is learned less formal in discussions and individually, outside of Treeleaf.
In the past, several Unsui attended external ethics and boundaries courses and trained individually for chaplaincy work.
Some are (mental) health professionals, some do voluntary work on help lines, work with folks with addictions and more and join courses to do so.
Myself, I am volunteering in a refugee camp/home and a hospice, where I needed to join courses and supervisions in order to be allowed to do so.

I think the chaplaincy work is more accentuated in the West and maybe not so much for priests in Japan? Hmm.
Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Ester]

Thanks!!
How interesting! I'll ask a couple more of questions later.


I've been in Treeleaf little time so far and I have directly interacted with only 4 of the unsuis and priests. I've read some others' texts too. I see a common pattern of careful and compassionate communication style, each with their own personal style, of course.
But I don't know how much of it comes from your individual natures or to how much from the training. I guess it's a mix of both?

Gassho,
Ester
Satlah

[Kotei]

...
But I don't know how much of it comes from your individual natures or to how much from the training. I guess it's a mix of both?

I think a general attitude of wanting to be helpful and act compassionate and careful, not putting oneself front and center, is something Jundo is looking for when deciding whom to ordain.
So I believe it is something that needs to be there individually.
Reflecting on this and defining it as part of being a Priest here, is also a constant in the training.

edit: and to the clothing part... In home and garden I am wearing Samue out of pure comfort.
Outside of formal Zen practice out there in the world, I wear normal business suits when working and preferably black jeans and such when not.
I don't think I would be seen as a Zen Priest. Bald head and black clothes are not that unusual over here.
I sometimes wear a Rakusu when doing voluntary work, but mostly not, as I don't want the mainly christian folks, I am caring for, to feel alienated.
On the other hand, you could say I am wearing the Rakusu/OKesa all the time. Not the piece of fabric, but the Buddhas teachings.

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Benjamin Gieseke]

Just want to pop in and say thank you to Ester and Bion and Kotei for their responses, this has been something I've been interested to know more about as well. Also, as I'm not sure if there are any chaplain-unsuis currently in the mix, I have served as a chaplain intern in the US and can speak to that experience somewhat if there are questions that come up about that specifically.

Gassho,
Benjamin
SatLah

[Bion]

Just want to pop in and say thank you to Ester and Bion and Kotei for their responses, this has been something I've been interested to know more about as well. Also, a I'm not sure if there are any chaplain-unsuis currently in the mix, I have served as a chaplain intern in the US and can speak to that experience somewhat if there are questions that come up about that specifically.

Gassho,
Benjamin
SatLah

I kind of like the fact that you all are curious and interested. It also makes me aware that you are observing and watching, so it awakens a sense of accountability and responsibility. So, thank you for that!

Gassho
sat lah

[Jundo]

Hi Ester,

I would say that, traditionally, Buddhist monks in Asia were about (1) realization, enlightenment, and monastic practice to attain the same. They are not medical doctors, counsellors, mental health professionals, addiction specialists or social workers. The question we deal with is the meaning of life, what we are in the universe and the ultimate suffering (caused by the self/other divide.)

At other times in Asian history, monks became someone who (2) would perform ceremonies to make the crops grow, to make it rain, to get the Buddhas to intervene to cure disease or perform funerals and memorial services for the dead. Even so, they were not medical doctors, counsellors, mental health professionals, addiction specialists or social workers. Monks were also someone (3) to whom lay people could make donations in order to earn Karmic merit and a good rebirth. As one additional role for monks in Asia, they might (4) sometimes provide some kind of "temple school" or simple medical care before the days of public education or modern hospitals and doctors. Still, they were not trained as medical doctors, counsellors, mental health professionals, addiction specialists or social workers in any modern way. In old centuries, the concepts of counsellors, mental health professionals, addiction specialists or social workers simply did not exist anywhere in the world.

In modern times, in the Western countries especially (5), some actual modern medical doctors, counsellors, mental health professionals, addiction specialists or social workers have become Zen and other Buddhist priests. Those folks have tried to combine modern psychology and Buddhist practice. Sometimes it is a good fit, sometimes not. Sometimes it makes for bad Buddhism and pop psychology. Sometimes the results are better.

However, I believe that the role of the Zen priest is primarily (1). We are to focus best on the meaning of life, what we are in the universe and the ultimate suffering (caused by the self/other divide.) I reject (2) and (3). I believe that (4) and (5) should all be left to actual professionals.

Some priests today may learn about (6) caring for the dying or people with addictions because of personal interest. For example, my wife and I (and Kotei now) were hospice volunteers for many years because we found a calling there, and we received some training to work with the dying. Ankai now works with addicts and is trained in that field. Our Tokan is training to be a psychiatric nurse. However, this is not something required because we are Zen priests. Rather, they happen to be something we feel called to do which fits with being a Buddhist priest.

The main job of a Buddhist priest, and the main role of a Zen priest is (1) ... to face the ultimate suffering of our feeling separate from the universe. Things like people's trauma, depression, panic disorders, physical illnesses and the like are for medical doctors, counsellors, mental health professionals, addiction specialists or social workers. When we meet problem with physical or mental issues best dealt with by specialists, we recommend the people to see medical doctors, counsellors, mental health professionals, addiction specialists or social workers. It happens that Zen practice can help with people's trauma, depression, panic disorders, addictions and acceptance of physical illnesses, but we are still not specialists in treating those things (e.g., Zazen helps panic disorders because we learn to relax and "go with the flow," but we are not trained to be specialists in treating panic disorders.)

It is something like saying that, when your car is broken, you see a car mechanic, not a Zen priest (unless the priest happens to be a mechanic.) Likewise, for a bad tooth, see a dentist, not a Zen priest. The role of the Zen priest is maybe to help you accept and feel "at one" with the bad tooth or broken car, but not to fix them.

We Zen folks deal instead with the meaning of life, what we are in the universe and the ultimate suffering (caused by the self/other divide.)

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

PS - As to Robes, I usually only wear priest robes when engaged in priest activities, e.g., leading Zazen. I do not wear them to the gym or grocery. For Japanese priests, it depends on the person and situation. Some who are public school teachers will not wear there robes in the public school. They may wear Samu-e at the grocery, but not their full robes. Or they may wear ordinary jeans and western clothes.

[John MacBrayne]

A very interesting post, and something to aspire to !
Gassho
J
sat/lah

[Matt Johnson]

Hi Ester,

I would say that, traditionally, Buddhist monks in Asia were about (1) realization, enlightenment, and monastic practice to attain the same. They are not medical doctors, counsellors, mental health professionals, addiction specialists or social workers. The question we deal with is the meaning of life, what we are in the universe and the ultimate suffering (caused by the self/other divide.)

I agree Jundo at most points here such that some of it bears repeating. I have also been pondering some of these issues with regard to merging disciplines and professions. Here are some added thoughts:

I have not formally researched this much but it is my considered opinion that to the extent that realisation and enlightenment have any connection to living a good human life and to reduce suffering then there is no problem with Zen teachers speaking toward mental health and wellbeing.

Questions such as to how we ought to live our life and how to embody compassion in the brutal past, used to be more the province of religion. Indeed all the great religions had their genesis as an answer to the brutal way, people treated each other.

Medical doctors, counsellors, mental health professionals, addiction specialists or social workers are in many cases secular expressions of this religious/spiritual insight and most of these professions barely existed for most of human history. In the case of my own profession of social work it more obviously grew out of the secularization of religious and charitable work.

I have no doubt that Zen Buddhist practise as far back as anyone can remember had an awful lot to do with mental health and well-being… So I do not see any necessary split here. Back then as you say none of these “allied helping professions” existed.

A problem tends to emerge in the secular world and its push towards siloing everybody in their individual professions (and making people pay for the support they need)(which is really more a product of capitalism, commodification and secularization). But in Zen as well as in Social Work there is the problem of professional encroachment by life coaches, human service workers, self-styled gurus, fortune tellers... etc...

“I have questioned the efficacy of conventional social work approaches, recognizing the inherent contradiction in the helper-helpee dynamic, which can sometimes limit how practitioners support their clients. Professional boundaries are essential for maintaining objectivity, preventing conflicts of interest, and avoiding power imbalances, but I believe true Social Work transcends these boundaries. Social workers must daily live with the paradox of embracing a shared humanity and suffering, fostering mutual empowerment and recognizing that meaningful change happens when professionalism meets genuine human connection and shared social, economic, political, and environmental aims. (from an essay I wrote recently).”

In modern times, in the Western countries especially (5), some actual modern medical doctors, counsellors, mental health professionals, addiction specialists or social workers have become Zen and other Buddhist priests. Those folks have tried to combine modern psychology and Buddhist practice. Sometimes it is a good fit, sometimes not. Sometimes it makes for bad Buddhism and pop psychology. Sometimes the results are better.

I agree that focus is good and compartmentalization is good, being a specialist is good. But being whole and integrated is better. For example being a social worker who can weld and repair cars allows one an activity to use when doing clinical work with at risk youth when traditional talk therapy fails.

Being a zen priest and being a mental health professional is no less awesome. Using your insights gained as a mental health professional as a Zen priest or your insights as a priest in your work as a mental health professional is wonderful... I think you just need to be aware of what you're doing.... be aware of what ingredients you're putting into the cake.... I think the problem arises when people just throw some stuff in without really knowing what they're putting in and whether/how it goes together. For example, a problem would certainly emerge if I decided to turn my welder on my social work client and start fixing them...

The main job of a Buddhist priest, and the main role of a Zen priest is (1) ... to face the ultimate suffering of our feeling separate from the universe. Things like people's trauma, depression, panic disorders, physical illnesses and the like are for medical doctors, counsellors, mental health professionals, addiction specialists or social workers. When we meet problem with physical or mental issues best dealt with by specialists, we recommend the people to see medical doctors, counsellors, mental health professionals, addiction specialists or social workers. It happens that Zen practice can help with people's trauma, depression, panic disorders, addictions and acceptance of physical illnesses, but we are still not specialists in treating those things (e.g., Zazen helps panic disorders because we learn to relax and "go with the flow," but we are not trained to be specialists in treating panic disorders.)

For me that suffering and separation extend to all the parts of ourselves that are forced to be separate as a result of concepts like professionalism and specialisation....we are whole, organic human beings, not robots.... and it is very natural for us to want to bring these parts of ourselves together into a unified practice and life...

I also believe that all Zen teachers who participate or host sesshins should have some training in trauma-informed care and should at least be conversant in the idea of oppression and the structural causes of suffering.

It is something like saying that, when your car is broken, you see a car mechanic, not a Zen priest (unless the priest happens to be a mechanic.) Likewise, for a bad tooth, see a dentist, not a Zen priest. The role of the Zen priest is maybe to help you accept and feel "at one" with the bad tooth or broken car, but not to fix them.

What about making space for and witnessing people's process of healing? I think that is well within the purview of a Zen priest....

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

Ester, Matt,

I want to say that I agree with almost all of what Matt says, and he expressed things better than me. A few comments on what Matt wrote ...

I have not researched this much but it is my considered opinion that to the extent that realisation and enlightenment have any connection to living a good human life and to reduce suffering then there is no problem with Zen teachers speaking toward mental health and wellbeing. Such questions as to how we ought to live our life and how to embody compassion in the dog eat dog past used to be more the province of religion. Indeed all the great religions had their genesis as an answer to the brutal way, people treated each other on a daily basis...

I believe that Zen practice can have a great POSITIVE effect on many kinds of mental illness ... such as depression, anxiety, neurosis and more. When the self softens in its resistance to life, and when we are less puppets of our thoughts, we tend to become free or freer of our dark thoughts and emotions, fears and such. It is also true that in the old centuries, there were no medical doctors or mental health professionals, so religions had to serve in that role. Zen deals with the oppression of the "little self," with its frustrated desires, confusion, sadness and fears, and so is STRONG medicine for the suffering of the little self.

However, now we do have medical doctors and mental health professionals, and they are generally much better at dealing with some things than is the priest. So, while I still recommend Zen practice to people with depression, anxiety, etc., they should also see the mental health professional. The two can go hand-in-hand. Likewise, when somebody comes here with a bad heart or cancer, they should see a heart doctor or oncologist. The most I can do as a priest (although it is a BIG thing) is to show them how to be "at one" and accept their bad heart or cancer, and to flow with their illness, even as they take their medicine or surgery. I cannot treat much more about the disease. (I might do a chant in which I ask Buddha and the gods to help their cancer but, frankly, I only do that if it makes the person feel better, and I do not believe in that much. Nevertheless, I do it sometimes if the person asks and it makes them feel better. Why not? It cannot hurt, and who know, maybe it will help.)

Today, because people do come to Zen and other Buddhist groups with mental conditions, all Zen priests should have enough training to recognize when someone is in crisis, and to point them to mental health or medical professionals. We should not attempt to treat mental or medical conditions as priests. I even say that someone should only engage in Zen practice if their doctor approves. I am like a swimming coach dealing with an overweight man who wants swimming lessons: The swimming is probably good for him, very healthy, but I want his doctor to approve.

Some Zen priests happen also to be trained and licensed mental health professionals. That is a special situation where the person is qualified on all fronts. I do say that, sometimes in the West, Zen is getting pulled into being a kind of pop-psychology, rather than a spiritual practice focused on enlightenment and liberation, so it also has a small down side. It sometimes becomes "just another therapy," and loses the important emphasis on the meaning of life, what we are in the universe and curing the ultimate suffering (caused by the self/other divide.) I think the priest role should stay primarily about " the meaning of life, what we are in the universe and the ultimate suffering (caused by the self/other divide.)"

life coaches, human service workers, Self-Style gurus, Fortune tellers... etc...

As bad as faith healers to cure your cancer. Most are unqualified amateurs, sellers of useless treatments and snake oil, and many are outright charlatans.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Onki]

Hey All,

From my own personal experiences of formal Priest training (as I am a Junior Priest and have not been Ordained for that long, just over 1 year), there have, and probably always will be many, many bumps in the road. Training, for me at least, has not been linear - far from it. For me, my Training ebbs and flows. At times my Training appears to be laid out and easy to understand. I am able to get things done in a timely manner, facilitate sub forum groups, keep up with readings, answer emails, chat with folks that need a listening ear, participate in forum discussions, etc. Then there are times (Most of the time!) where I feel like I have no idea what the hell I’m doing, everything is a mess (Including myself), and I wonder if I am “good enough” to even be a Priest. I think this is actually a part of Priest Training in itself; questioning and looking deeply at yourself. Asking yourself, what can I bring to the Sangha? How can I help others that suffer including myself? How can I use my Training to benefit all beings including myself? I am always learning new things, having realizations about the Teachings, the Universe, about myself, and having the ability to apply all of these things into this thing called Life.

As I work with vulnerable children in my career, I have taken many courses including trauma informed care, suicide prevention, and have a diploma in Advanced Child and Youth Care. I agree that Priests should have some knowledge of different sorts of oppression, injustices, and offer support to folks that need a space to begin healing. That being said, this should not be the Priest’s sole responsibility. Yes, a Priest can absolutely be a part of this journey by offering compassion, bearing witness, having an open and honest dialogue, etc. Personally, I feel that as a Priest I would want to point folks in the direction to qualified professionals as 1) I am not in the medical field, 2) Therefore I am not qualified to offer any expertise regarding diagnosis and 3) As a Priest, I would want this person to receive the proper help and support that they need in order to live a joyous life.

For me in a sense, Priest Training has not been what I expected. Please do not take this as negative! Far from it! I didn’t fully understand how involved it is, how I have to put myself out there on the front lines, really dig deep into myself and look at the pieces that I’d rather hide. I have had to learn to do things, such as my first time as Ino for Zazenkai, that normally I would shy away from. I have had to learn to write a Dharma talk, something I always dreamed of doing. But when it came down to actually writing and recording the talk, I was absolutely terrified.

But I did it.

This is part of Training for me: accepting that I am scared and uncomfortable, worrying that I am going to do a terrible job, and no one will like what I have done. And despite having all of those thoughts, breathe, let go, and do the things that scare me.

As for Robes as well as Kesa, I wear them for Priest activities and ceremonies. I was gifted a few sets of Samue that I absolutely love. I like to wear them around the house and while running errands as they are very comfortable. With the Rakusu, I wear this during Zazen and anytime I am having discussions with other Priests/Unsui. Sometimes I will wear it outside of the house.

Gasshō,

On