Awareness while sleeping

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  • Ester
    Member
    • Jul 2024
    • 211

    Awareness while sleeping

    Hi,

    ​​​​​(Please, if this is not the right sub forum for this question let me know, I'm learning to navigate the forum)

    Ok. I'm not my body. I'm not my thoughts. I'm my awareness. Well....what happens when I'm sleeping and I'm not aware of anything?

    I know that ultimately there is no "I" but I guess that the question still makes sense. Doesn't it?

    Thanks!
    Gassho,
    Ester
    Satlah




  • Houzan
    Member
    • Dec 2022
    • 541

    #2
    Are you your awareness?

    Gassho, Hōzan
    satlah

    Comment

    • Bion
      Senior Priest-in-Training
      • Aug 2020
      • 4845

      #3
      Originally posted by Ester
      Hi,

      ​​​​(Please, if this is not the right sub forum for this question let me know, I'm learning to navigate the forum)

      Ok. I'm not my body. I'm not my thoughts. I'm my awareness. Well....what happens when I'm sleeping and I'm not aware of anything?

      I know that ultimately there is no "I" but I guess that the question still makes sense. Doesn't it?

      Thanks!
      Gassho,
      Ester
      Satlah



      Well, are you sure you are not all those things combined? Where does awareness reside without a body? Are you still Ester when asleep and a whole system of organs, nerves and tissue consciously works relentlessly so that you can wake up or simply continue to breathe? Is someone who is in a coma still themselves?

      Gassho
      sat lah
      "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 40792

        #4
        Ok. I'm not my body. I'm not my thoughts. I'm my awareness. Well....what happens when I'm sleeping and I'm not aware of anything?
        That is the kind of thing that is said in some kind of "Eastern" or New Age teachings which is not really said in Zen ... They emphasize some underlying conscious or "Watcher" or the like that we are supposed to realize. Zen folks should not be distracted by such wild goose chases.

        You are causes and conditions which have come together to be a body, thoughts and awareness which, for some years, is "Ester" ... and you are also the whole world manifesting in this one place as "Ester" ... and your body is all this, your thoughts are all this and your awareness is all this ... and when those causes and conditions someday dissipate and "Ester" is no more, you are still all this ...

        Now, that is true when you are awake or asleep. So, please go sit some Zazen, then go to bed and sleep well!

        Gassho, J
        stlah
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

        Comment

        • Matt Johnson
          Member
          • Jun 2024
          • 530

          #5
          Advaita Vedanta has a lot of very interesting things to say on this topic Ester . And they encourage sitting as well.

          _/\_
          sat/ah
          matt

          Comment

          • Ester
            Member
            • Jul 2024
            • 211

            #6
            Originally posted by Jundo

            That is the kind of thing that is said in some kind of "Eastern" or New Age teachings which is not really said in Zen ... They emphasize some underlying conscious or "Watcher" or the like that we are supposed to realize. Zen folks should not be distracted by such wild goose chases.

            You are causes and conditions which have come together to be a body, thoughts and awareness which, for some years, is "Ester" ... and you are also the whole world manifesting in this one place as "Ester" ... and your body is all this, your thoughts are all this and your awareness is all this ... and when those causes and conditions someday dissipate and "Ester" is no more, you are still all this ...

            Now, that is true when you are awake or asleep. So, please go sit some Zazen, then go to bed and sleep well!

            Gassho, J
            stlah
            In my case it's not New agey stuff (thay I never found very interesting) but Advaita Vedanta (in particular the Ramakrishna school) what is mixing up with zen in my poor little brain.
            I'd be supe grateful if you could develop your answer a bit more so as I understand the role of "awareness" in zen. What's"the observer" according to zen, then?


            Thanks!
            Gassho,
            Ester
            Satlah

            ​​​
            Last edited by Ester; 10-25-2024, 06:52 AM.

            Comment

            • Ester
              Member
              • Jul 2024
              • 211

              #7
              Originally posted by Houzan
              Are you your awareness?

              Gassho, Hōzan
              satlah
              I'm I not the observer?

              Thanks!
              Gassho,
              Ester

              Comment

              • Ester
                Member
                • Jul 2024
                • 211

                #8
                Originally posted by Bion

                Well, are you sure you are not all those things combined? Where does awareness reside without a body? Are you still Ester when asleep and a whole system of organs, nerves and tissue consciously works relentlessly so that you can wake up or simply continue to breathe? Is someone who is in a coma still themselves?

                Gassho
                sat lah
                Ummm...I guess I'm everything combined and I'm the pillow, and I'm you, and I'm the sky...
                But aren't ultimately we-me-us-all awareness?
                Is Advaita Vedanta too mixed up with my zen?

                Thanks!
                Gassho,
                Ester
                Satlah

                Comment

                • Ester
                  Member
                  • Jul 2024
                  • 211

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Matt Johnson
                  Advaita Vedanta has a lot of very interesting things to say on this topic Ester . And they encourage sitting as well.

                  _/\_
                  sat/ah
                  matt
                  Yes, I've been leaning Advaita Vedanta for some time. According to spme answers above it seems that I've failed to grasp some fundamental difference between Advaita and Zen
                  I hope I can figure out what am I misunderstanding.
                  I'm really happy I made the question.

                  Gassho
                  Ester
                  Satlah
                  ​​

                  Comment

                  • Tokan
                    Member
                    • Oct 2016
                    • 1324

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Ester
                    Hi,
                    Ok. I'm not my body. I'm not my thoughts. I'm my awareness. Well....what happens when I'm sleeping and I'm not aware of anything?

                    Gassho,
                    Ester
                    Hi Ester

                    Well, I'm not offering any Zen answers, you've got those already, but from a physiological perspective, I wonder, are we really 'unaware' during sleep?

                    Although I sleep, my senses still function, so perception is still possible, as are mental formations, the thumping noise from one of the kid's bedrooms enters my 'sleeping awareness' and I wake momentarily to listen for any other sounds from that direction....no, they've gone back to sleep. Similarly, I can 'hear' other sounds through the night. When my sleep lightens, I might be 'aware' of the person next to me in the bed, or of the light rain outside. Were it not for this ability to remain partially 'aware' while asleep, humans may not have made it this far!

                    No teaching is intended in my comment, as I am a humble novice-priest with no teaching to offer.

                    Gassho, Tokan (satlah)

                    平道 島看 Heidou Tokan (Balanced Way Island Nurse)
                    I enjoy learning from everyone, I simply hope to be a friend along the way

                    Comment

                    • Ester
                      Member
                      • Jul 2024
                      • 211

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Tokan

                      Hi Ester

                      Well, I'm not offering any Zen answers, you've got those already, but from a physiological perspective, I wonder, are we really 'unaware' during sleep?

                      Although I sleep, my senses still function, so perception is still possible, as are mental formations, the thumping noise from one of the kid's bedrooms enters my 'sleeping awareness' and I wake momentarily to listen for any other sounds from that direction....no, they've gone back to sleep. Similarly, I can 'hear' other sounds through the night. When my sleep lightens, I might be 'aware' of the person next to me in the bed, or of the light rain outside. Were it not for this ability to remain partially 'aware' while asleep, humans may not have made it this far!

                      No teaching is intended in my comment, as I am a humble novice-priest with no teaching to offer.

                      Gassho, Tokan (satlah)
                      Thanks for offering this psychological perspective. You are right to suggest we should ask first if we aren't actually aware while sleeping. It's a good point and question.

                      Gassho,
                      Ester
                      Satlah

                      Comment

                      • Houzan
                        Member
                        • Dec 2022
                        • 541

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Ester

                        I'm I not the observer?

                        Thanks!
                        Gassho,
                        Ester
                        Yes, but YOU are just as much what is being observed. Therefore, there is no you, and that is why you also are everything.

                        I’ll try to explain my understanding, but I’m probably failing miserably. I am no teacher or unsui, so please bear that in mind.

                        If there is something you can call fully “you”, that “you” must be something permanent - something you fully control. Something independent. Running the analysis on your mind and body, there is nowhere or nothing you fully control (incl. your awareness). So you are not fully you. Other things and people also partly control all aspects of your body and mind. There is interdependency, there are causes and conditions. Therefore they are also you. It’s the same the other way around. So everything is you and you are also everything. The borders we place on our "self" break completely down.

                        Sorry for running long.

                        Gassho, Hōzan
                        Satlah
                        Last edited by Houzan; 10-25-2024, 11:40 AM.

                        Comment

                        • Bion
                          Senior Priest-in-Training
                          • Aug 2020
                          • 4845

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Ester

                          Ummm...I guess I'm everything combined and I'm the pillow, and I'm you, and I'm the sky...
                          But aren't ultimately we-me-us-all awareness?
                          Is Advaita Vedanta too mixed up with my zen?

                          Thanks!
                          Gassho,
                          Ester
                          Satlah
                          I think ULTIMATELY, or at the "core" or "essence" we are emptiness. We are interdependence and a product of causes and conditions. If I start to take "myself" apart I could never reach that 1 specific thing that sits independently from everything else, that 1 thing that everything is built on. Awareness does not reside independently somewhere, just waiting to be inserted into a body. This is precisely what we say in the Heart Sutra : "all things are expressions of emptiness".

                          Gassho
                          sat lah
                          "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

                          Comment

                          • Jundo
                            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 40792

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Ester

                            Yes, I've been leaning Advaita Vedanta for some time. According to spme answers above it seems that I've failed to grasp some fundamental difference between Advaita and Zen
                            Hi Ester,

                            I believe that there is much similarity between Advaita Vedanta and Master Dogen's Zen, but also something richer in the latter. It is a subtle, but important difference.

                            My impression is that, in Advaita, there is some underlying Mind or Brahma or Godhead or Awareness that one is to attain, and it is Real, but the things and events of this world are somehow not real, false, delusion. The things of this world are somehow a block to realizing this Awareness. One must get past the "unreal" things of this world to realize Awareness.

                            For Master Dogen, Mind and the small things, beings and moments of this world are faces of each other, the Whole Thing. Mind alone would be rather barren, empty (in the bad meaning) and lifeless without the life and chaos of this world to bring it to life. However, most people of this world get lost in the events of this world, so it is delusion for them when they only know that one side. However, when one realizes the Truth, then one knows the things of this world in a new way. The things, people and events of this world are no longer known as they were before. There is no need to "strip away" the things of this world to reach Awareness, but rather, the things of this world are Awareness, and Awareness is the things of this world when realized so. Such has been here all along even if we could not see. Life is something like a dream, but a real dream which we need to dream well. It is much better than thinking of this world and its people and events as just some "obstacle." Rather, they are all jewels.

                            Something like that.

                            Gassho, J
                            stlah

                            PS - The essay I just posted is about knowing this chaotic world as sacred in such way LINK

                            PPS - There is a pretty good book by a scholar/practitioner on Zen and Advaita, if you want to dive deep. LINK
                            Last edited by Jundo; 10-26-2024, 12:01 AM.
                            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                            Comment

                            • Jundo
                              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                              • Apr 2006
                              • 40792

                              #15
                              Here are an analogy I sometimes use that may illustrate the point.

                              So, imagine that this world is rather a fiction, like a movie on a screen. We sentient beings are like characters in the film and its story. Most folks do know realize this, so get caught up in the storyline ... the violence and love scenes and tragedy and jealousies, the greed and anger etc. etc. When we do so to excess, or in harmful ways, it is bad, it is unenlightened ignorance.

                              So what some Eastern philosophies do in response (including some forms of Buddhism) is to say that we need to wake up to the fact that this is a movie and story, strip away all the scenes and drama as fakery, and get back to the "Truth" which is the totally pure white screen and bare light. Only that is peace, union, timelessness etc. The point is for the lights in the theatre to come up, the film to be removed from the projector, and one finds themselves in a theatre with naked white light illuminating a blank screen that is the Godhead or Mind or Dharmakaya Buddha or whatever. Something like that.

                              Many Zen folks, such as our Master Dogen, say that doing so is something of a mistake. The screen and light is the source of the movie, but actually, the movie is the screen and light come to life ... otherwise the light and blank wall are lifeless. An empty screen is not "Truth." In fact, Truth is the whole thing come alive in the story, and each thing in the story. It is not a "falsehood," so much as a "real story, a real movie." The point is the tale happening, and the wall of light moves, laughs and cries and finds its meaning with the characters. (We also realize that the characters ... you and me ... are thus each other in other guise, and the whole thing, all the light.) The peace union and timelessness of the light --is-- all the beautiful and ugly scenes of this world to those wise enough to see.

                              It may be a "story," but it is our real story, our life. Our task to is realize so (that it is rather a bit of theatre, yes), but then we need to get on with acting it well. If the whole universe went to all the trouble of making this bit of theatre with all this scenery and us characters, the point is probably to live it and act it out with wisdom! We should live it as Truth, even if there is more to it than meets the eye. For us, that means our doing so with less excess desire, less anger and violence, etc. Our life may be a fiction in one sense, but it is a real story, and really our lives. You are your thoughts, you are your body, and they are no obstacles for they are just the light

                              (However, when you do not realize such fact, and do not know the light, falling into greed, anger and divided thinking ... they are obstacles.)

                              And, yes, we are the light, we are the screen ... and there is more to this world than meets the eye. Our characters appear in the story suddenly, live for a few scenes, then disappear. However, since we are the light and whole production all along, truly we never really go anywhere or come from anywhere else. It is something like a great DVD which holds the movie, and we are always there even if it appears that we come and go and things are always changing.

                              So, Zen is a bit more subtle than just realizing the light of some bare awareness.

                              Gassho, J
                              stlah
                              Last edited by Jundo; 10-28-2024, 04:07 AM.
                              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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