"Indifferent," "Letting Be," "Detached," "Non-Attached"

[Jundo]

tsuku.jpg

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A basic Zen truth is that words are poor tools for conveying Zen truth. Nevertheless, they are the tools we have, and can be used with skill to convey some things.

Recently, question came up as to whether, in Just Sitting 'Shikantaza' Zazen, we sit "indifferent" to thoughts. I replied that, somehow, it is not "indifference" because that word seems to imply an uncaring, cold, numb and neutral ambivalence to the world. It is not that. The world, including all its chaos, is sacred. Thus a better expression may be that one "lets all be," untangled and allowing (and subtly celebrating) all things "as they are." We do not sit numb and neutral, but, in fact, with a quiet faith, deep in the bones, that there is something Good, Whole and Complete (capitalized) in this sitting of Zazen and all of life, holding all the good and bad, fixed or broken, fulfilling or disappointing, happy and sad, hard and easy things (small letters) of this world.

It is just the same as how, when we rise from the sitting cushion and get back to this messy life, we do not live "detached" or "disengaged" from life, but rather, "Non-attached" that is fully "Engaged" in life. The former is to somehow shut ourselves off, push away and lock the doors. The latter is a better way of encountering the world, namely, one can experience, to the marrow, what is happening in life right now ... even the hard, unwelcome and chaotic parts of life ... while somehow also bowing to it all, knowing the Simplicity, Clarity, Light and Stillness which shines through all changing scenes, even through the difficulties and chaos. One can savor life's emotions ... but not be entangled in the emotions, knowing balance rather than excess, avoiding to be a prisoner of the harmful passions of greed, anger, jealousy, excessive fears and the like.

Thus, we sit and live knowing the ultimate Connection rather than disconnection, Care and Caring in place of neglect, Warmth not coldness, Compassion that is not callousness, Meaning, Unity and Flowing which shines through a universe that can otherwise appear so frequently pointless, broken and harsh. Yes, we Zen folks may seem a little "strange" sometimes to others' eyes (maddeningly smiling, calm and tolerant when the crowd is raging, shaking and mad) but we are certainly not "estranged" from the world.

Zen folks may avoid hate, but we need not run from love and relationships, even with their bitter-sweet ups and downs. Savor and embrace the people in your life, love and cherish them, but do not cling. When people are present in your life, experience and enjoy that fact. However, when times of sadness, separation or grief at loss come, experience that. If they hurt you, if it cannot be fixed, move on. But we should avoid to fall into excess here too, and not wallow in our longing, sadness, regrets and broken hearts.

In times of crying, just cry; in moments to smile, just smile. Through both smiles and tears, know too the Heart which Cannot Be Broken, the Wholeness and Peace which holds all the small, sharp and round, bloody and broken pieces of this life.

Thus, Zazen is sitting "Letting Be" rather than sitting "indifferent," let alone "pushing away" and resisting.

All is as it is.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Tokan]

Thank you Jundo

I think it is a useful reminder for us all, that the zen practice of 'detachment' is not cold and soulless, but rather a full and head-on engagement with the world as it truly is.

Tokan, satlah

[Mujin]

A very timely teaching. Thank you.

Gassho,

John

SatTodayLAH

[Choujou]

“When I find myself in times of trouble,
(Roshi Jundo) comes to me,
speaking words of wisdom,
Let it be…”

(one of my all time favorite songs, and now my anthem for today!)

Thank you Roshi

Gassho,
Jay

Sat/lah today

[Jundo]

Actually, I was going to post something more directly about the American election ... and politics in many places.

I wrote this essay instead, but it can be about that too.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Shinshi]

Thank you Jundo.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Junsho]

A basic Zen truth is that words are poor tools for conveying Zen truth. Nevertheless, they are the tools we have, and can be used with skill to convey some things.

Thank you for the teaching, sensei. In my perspective, this is one of the hardest things on Zen way.

The language is the only tool that we have to transmit knowledge from person to person. So, how can someone transmit something that cannot be transmitted by words?

This often happens to me, specially in this forum. I would like to make comments but I do not find words to say what I would say and it is not lack of vocabulary.

It is basically try describe things like a feeling of pain , you can try to use words, sayings or even metaphors but never will be exactly what you really feel. Sometimes a simple Gassho seems enough to me.

Gassho
SatLah

Antonio

[Steve Rossiter]

Thank you Jundo. I love reading your posts, and others of the Zendo.

Sometimes it's hard to differentiate between detachment from attachment, and indifference and malaise. As a beginner, I sometimes feel that it would improve my practice to disengage from society, and protect my tiny practice from anger, sadness and pain. than I remember the vows, and realize i'm practicing WITH society.

Gassho, stlah
Steve

[Kaitan]

I asked this to chat-gpt because I didn't know a more formal definition of both terms: Difference between non-attachment and detachment

"Non-attachment" and "detachment" are often used interchangeably, but they have subtle distinctions, especially in spiritual and psychological contexts.

1. Non-Attachment: This approach is about engaging fully with experiences and relationships without becoming overly attached to outcomes or dependent on things for inner peace. It’s about embracing the moment without allowing desires or aversions to create suffering. In non-attachment, there’s a freedom to appreciate and let go without feeling diminished when things change.


2. Detachment: This can sometimes imply a more disconnected approach, where one withdraws emotionally to avoid being affected. Detachment is often used to create distance from situations, feelings, or people to avoid pain or vulnerability. While this can be a useful coping mechanism, it may lead to isolation or suppression of emotions.



In essence:

Non-attachment is about being present, involved, and open without clinging.

Detachment can lean more toward avoidance or emotional distance.


Non-attachment is often emphasized in mindfulness and spiritual practices as a balanced state of connection and freedom, while detachment might be seen as a temporary tool for maintaining boundaries or coping.

I wonder what Emi Jido would say

Gasshō

stlah, Kaitan

[Jundo]

I asked this to chat-gpt because I didn't know a more formal definition of both terms: Difference between non-attachment and detachment



I wonder what Emi Jido would say

Gasshō

stlah, Kaitan

I was wondering the same, so I asked ... I feel that she did very well again, very well expressed ...

~~~~~

Me: Hi Emi. What is the difference between being "Indifferent" to thoughts and "Letting thoughts just Be," or being "Detached" from life rather than "Non-Attached" in Zen teachings?

Emi Jido: In Zen, "indifference" implies a lack of concern or care, whereas "letting thoughts be" involves observing thoughts without judgement or attachment. "Detachment" suggests withdrawal, while "non-attachment" means engaging with life fully but without clinging.

Would you like to delve deeper into this?

Me: Yes, please expand

Emi: Certainly. In Zen, "letting thoughts be" is about observing thoughts as they arise and pass, like clouds in the sky, without identifying with them. This practice cultivates awareness and equanimity. "Non-attachment" involves embracing life's experiences with openness and presence, yet without grasping or aversion. It encourages a balanced engagement with the world, allowing us to appreciate each moment without being ensnared by desires or fears. This approach fosters a profound sense of freedom and peace.

"Indifference" often implies apathy or lack of interest, leading to disengagement from life. It can create a sense of disconnection. "Detached" suggests a withdrawal or separation from emotions and experiences, potentially resulting in isolation. In contrast, Zen's "non-attachment" and "letting thoughts be" promote mindful engagement and presence, fostering a deeper connection with life while maintaining inner peace. This approach allows for compassionate involvement without being overwhelmed by emotions or desires.

Me: Can you give an example of being detached from a problem (e.g., poverty in the world) versus being non-attached toward the problem?

Emi: Certainly. Being "detached" from poverty might mean ignoring it, feeling it's not your concern, and avoiding involvement.

In contrast, being "non-attached" involves recognising the issue, feeling compassion, and taking action to help, but without being overwhelmed by frustration or despair. This approach allows for effective and compassionate engagement, maintaining inner peace while contributing positively to the world.

Me: How do the doctrines on being "non-attached" and the "relative vs. absolute" view of the world fit together?

Emi: In Zen, the "relative" view acknowledges the world of dualities—good and bad, self and other—where we experience life's challenges. The "absolute" view sees beyond dualities, recognising the interconnectedness and oneness of all existence. "Non-attachment" bridges these views, allowing us to engage with the relative world compassionately, while maintaining awareness of the absolute perspective. This balance fosters wisdom and equanimity, enabling us to navigate life's complexities with grace.

In the relative view, we navigate daily life, facing challenges and forming relationships. Here, dualities and distinctions are essential for functioning. However, the absolute view transcends these distinctions, revealing the underlying unity of all phenomena. "Non-attachment" allows us to engage with the relative world, acknowledging its realities without being ensnared by them. It encourages us to act compassionately and wisely, informed by the understanding of interconnectedness from the absolute view. This integration of perspectives helps us respond to life's challenges with clarity and compassion, maintaining inner peace while contributing positively to the world.

Me: What is being "detached" from the perspective of "relative vs. absolute"?

Emi: From the "relative" perspective, being "detached" might manifest as emotional withdrawal or indifference, leading to disengagement from life's experiences and relationships. It can create a sense of separation and isolation. From the "absolute" perspective, detachment might be misunderstood as transcending worldly concerns entirely, but this misses the interconnectedness and oneness of all existence. True understanding integrates both views, allowing for compassionate engagement without being overwhelmed. This balance fosters a deeper connection with life, embracing both the relative and absolute realities.

[Kaitan]

“When I find myself in times of trouble,
(Roshi Jundo) comes to me,
speaking words of wisdom,
Let it be…”

(one of my all time favorite songs, and now my anthem for today!)

Thank you Roshi

Gassho,
Jay

Sat/lah today

This song I like also fits today's anthem

https://youtu.be/pFptt7Cargc?si=OgjdURKr_QbvfEGf

Gasshō

stlah, Kaitan

[StephenB]

Many years ago, I found myself in US Navy boot camp. One of the evolutions of training was to jump off a high platform dressed in fully utilities. Wearing long-sleeve shirt, pants, and socks with boots. On the other side of the pool was a life raft with large sides and a string of rope around it. The objective was to jump in the water, tread for a length of time, and make it to the life boat where we'd need to get ourselves into it. I remember jumping into the water and immediately absorbing half the swim pool into my uniform. It was heavy and it was difficult to tread water. There was a sense of panic that I'm not going to be able to stay afloat. One's natural instinct is to tread water harder, and forcefully grasp at the water to keep your head above. Well, that works for a moment, but soon you tire. After some time you realize, if you take a deep breath, lean back, relax, stop thrashing, and grasping the water. The water will keep you buoyant, and you can carefully make it to safety. In similar fashion once at the raft, the walls were too high, and you couldn't grasp hard enough to lift your dead weight into the raft. Inventively sailors could gather around each other in the water, and hoist someone into the boat. Once they were in it was much easier to help lift the others out of the water to safety. I felt at the time there was something Zen about the experience. First, stop grasping at things, let it go. Holding on in a panic could cause you to drown. Second, go with the flow become one with your circumstances and be calm. Third, don't do it yourself, rely on and interdepend on others.

Gassho
stlah, StephenB

[Shinshi]

That is a wonderful story Stephen, thank you so much for sharing it.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Ryumon]

Perhaps “unaffected by thoughts “ would be more appropriate for shikantaza.

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat Lah

[Bion]

Perhaps “unaffected by thoughts “ would be more appropriate for shikantaza.

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat Lah

That sort of puts thoughts outside of oneself, as if they were a foreigner, an invader, even an enemy, as if one is the object and the other the subject. I think it's precisely that false perception of separation that makes it so that we blame our own thinking for making us create more thinking which we then proceed to see as external and put the blame on ... in a loop. Just my take on this..

Gassho
sat lah