Need advice on cutting off a mind road

[Tom M]

Hi folks,

The phrase "cut off the mind road" recently really sank in, and practice has deepened in ways that are hard to describe. Outside of practice I've noticed that the way I habitually kill time is to get on the mind road. For example, playing guitar tends to lead to thinking and thinking and thinking about the fretboard, and theory and so on.

Have your ways to "kill time" changed as your zen went on? Did you move towards things that don't cram the mind?

Tom
Sat today

[Koushi]

Hiya Tom,

You're right, we do often engage in things that lead us down those mind roads/rabbit holes. And how!

Have your ways to "kill time" changed as your zen went on? Did you move towards things that don't cram the mind?

I can't honestly say that zen practice has changed my ways to "kill time," I do still quite enjoy a good movie, book, TV show, the odd video game, etc etc—and the mind keeps doing what it does! For me, the most important part was recognizing that the mind and its roads has its place and time, too.

For example, when I'm at work figuring out a solution to a complex problem, or studying, or back when I played the violin, figuring out a piece of music, the mind and its thoughts were/are valuable. It took a while for me to learn that it wasn't about rejecting the thoughts and rabbit holes altogether, but recognizing when it's skillful and when it's habitual noise or distraction.

We can never eliminate thinking—but we can become more aware of when we get lost in it (as you noted!). Instead of moving away from things that might cram the mind, or try to eliminate dualistic thinking 100% of the time forever (if you figure that out, please let me know!), perhaps we can try our best to bring clarity and presence to whatever we do, do, instead. Even if that's walking the road from time to time.

Gassho,
Koushi
STLaH

[Jundo]

Hi folks,

The phrase "cut off the mind road" recently really sank in, and practice has deepened in ways that are hard to describe. Outside of practice I've noticed that the way I habitually kill time is to get on the mind road. For example, playing guitar tends to lead to thinking and thinking and thinking about the fretboard, and theory and so on.

Have your ways to "kill time" changed as your zen went on? Did you move towards things that don't cram the mind?

Tom
Sat today

No. I like to kill time sometimes. What time is there to kill?

Sometimes just play to play. Sometimes think about the fretboard. Sometimes fret about some problem ...

Sometimes I read books on science and history, sometimes I put the books down and pick up the guitar, sometimes I watch a silly tv show on the exercise bike (watching the UK's "Slow Horses" now), sometimes I worry about some problem my kid might have, sometimes I just smell the roses, sometimes head to the gym and listen to podcasts ... sometimes just sit Zazen. All good time, nothing to kill.

Why not?

Being "in the moment" means to realize that we are ALWAYS in this moment. Where else could we be? If this moment is fretting about the fretboard, then just be in the moment of fretting about the fret board. It is human. If this moment is a moment of "playing just to play" without thought ... then be in the moment of just playing.

Of course, we also learn not to get so tangled in thoughts. If thoughts come down that road, like passing cars, just don't get in and go for a ride as much. Let them pass. Especially, let pass the bad cars (greed, anger and ignorance.)

I am reading a book now about a Japanese Soto teacher, a modern one, who emphasizes "being in the moment, do one act at one time" to students during Sesshin (LINK). It is very effective during session, and they really come to appreciate "just this moment of washing my hands" "just this moment of sitting Zazen" "just this moment of eating food." It is basic and effective Soto Zen training, the kind we also emphasize at Treeleaf. The students in the book have AMAZING Sesshin experiences, very powerful of just "doing this in this moment," dropping self and experiencing great insight. However, that is all the teacher emphasizes, and does not speak so much about taking it "out into the world." The students seem to start to lose grounding to the earth after a few days of this, and start to sound a little delusional sometimes. For that reason, the book is very honest about the fact that some of the students seem to have small nervous breakdowns or other problems when they get back to the "outside world" where you cannot (and should not) live like that always.

So I say to you: Please kill time AND realize that "time cannot ever be killed" all at once!

Gassho, J
stlah

PS - Nice response from Koushi.

[Bion]

Outside of practice I've noticed that the way I habitually kill time is to get on the mind road. For example, playing guitar tends to lead to thinking and thinking and thinking about the fretboard, and theory and so on.

Hi, Tom... My two cents here. Piggybacking on that line I'm quoting from you. One of the little aha moments for me, was realising there is no "inside" or "outside" of practice. Everything is practice., it's just I show up for it in different ways, at different times, whether I am sitting zazen, peeling potatoes, dealing with annoying clients, watching Netflix etc... I think what being engaged in formal Zen practice has done for me is bring awareness to the front and center, I can tell when I am present, or when I am on the mind road, as you say. I more easily catch myself becoming lost in thoughts as I walk down the road, or as I do dishes, I can see myself clearly when I pick up the phone to check it continuously although I am watching a movie or trying to read a book. That awareness sort of feels like having one of those computer pop-up buttons: "Are you sure you would like to continue with this task? Yes / No". There is not much judgment in that pop-up. It's just clarity, or knowledge.

Gassho
sat lah

[michaelw]

There is a saying 'sometimes I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits.'
At work we called it a 'design coma' 'I was thinking about work - honest.'
I rather like Uchiyama's saying that 'thoughts are just the scenery of zazen'.

Gassho
MichaelW

satlah

[Tairin]

This is one of the reasons why I really appreciate the “All of Life is our Temple” saying here at TreeLeaf. It reminds me that our Practice is always with me. Put another way, it is all Practice.

Yesterday I cut my morning sit short so I could help my wife who was having a bad day. Morning sit, helping wife. Both are part of my Practice.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Hoko]

Hi Tom,

I'm not a teacher and this is simply my own, anecdotal observation, but it seems to me that if you are noticing that you are "getting on the mind road" then that, in and of itself, sounds like the fruit of practice.

Gassho,
Hoko

ST/LAH

[Rich]

Have your ways to "kill time" changed as your zen went on? Did you move towards things that don't cram the mind?

the older i get time seems to pass more quickly. It has become a precious jewel. I rest more and sometimes completely cut off my thinking. I’m still very active and doing positive actions to help myself and others. The truth is that here and now is the place to be and time is just a memory of the past or dream of the future. But if becoming a guitar player is important then thinking about it may help. It’s kind of a balance between obsessive compulsive thinking and using thinking to accomplish something. And that something could be the joy of killing time

sat/lah

[Tom M]

Thank you for your replies and advice. I've pondered them a long time because they disagreed with some gut feelings, but perhaps the gut feelings are moving closer to what Jundo and others have said.

I have a further question. Some teachers (like Adyashanti) talk about formless awareness, and suggest remaining with it as particular forms come and go. Is this more or less shikantaza?

Gassho,
Tom - sat today

[Jundo]

I have a further question. Some teachers (like Adyashanti) talk about formless awareness, and suggest remaining with it as particular forms come and go. Is this more or less shikantaza?

Hi Tom,

I am not a big Adyashanti fan, for various reasons, but I will say that is the general approach of Shikantaza Zazen.

However, do not expect to live like that all the time. I like to say that "Zazen mind" or "formless awareness" is always with me subtly in the bones, perfuming my encounter with all things, even if not at the forefront of my attention every moment. It also is like a tool on the toolbelt to reach for and summon up any time. Sometimes, when life gets too hectic or crazy, one can engage in "Zazen mind" right there, any where, at any time ... even if you need not be so all the time.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[StephenB]

I often times find a point of interest that I would like to know more about. I'll turn to YouTube and find a relevant video and I watch it. Invariably some other point of interest will be sparked and I go down the rabbit hole of YouTube surfing. Mindless video after mindless video will be watched or skipped. After a few minutes I get a notification asking me if I'd like to return to the original subject that I had searched for, the algorithm recognizes my mind has wandered, and returns my center of attention back to what I originally had an interest in. I believe it was in Mindfulness in Plain English that addressed the same time killing mind wandering. It said when we sit zazen we may find that our mind wanders from the present moment, and becomes distracted and unfocused, going from thought to thought. The advice was given to treat our minds like they are a small puppy. Puppies are prone to distractions and wandering about relieving themselves where they shouldn't. Instead of get upset with the puppy we pick it up, place it where it should go, and keep a closer eye after we've cleaned up the mess. The analogy for us is to in our "time killing" when we find ourselves distracted and behaving like a puppy. Gently pick ourselves up, bring ourselves back to where we should be, which is mindful in this moment. Thank you for your post Tom, it reminded me that "time killing" is a part of the practice of being mindful.

Gassho,
Stephen
Satlah

[Tokan]

I often times find a point of interest that I would like to know more about. I'll turn to YouTube and find a relevant video and I watch it. Invariably some other point of interest will be sparked and I go down the rabbit hole of YouTube surfing. Mindless video after mindless video will be watched or skipped. After a few minutes I get a notification asking me if I'd like to return to the original subject that I had searched for, the algorithm recognizes my mind has wandered, and returns my center of attention back to what I originally had an interest in. I believe it was in Mindfulness in Plain English that addressed the same time killing mind wandering. It said when we sit zazen we may find that our mind wanders from the present moment, and becomes distracted and unfocused, going from thought to thought. The advice was given to treat our minds like they are a small puppy. Puppies are prone to distractions and wandering about relieving themselves where they shouldn't. Instead of get upset with the puppy we pick it up, place it where it should go, and keep a closer eye after we've cleaned up the mess. The analogy for us is to in our "time killing" when we find ourselves distracted and behaving like a puppy. Gently pick ourselves up, bring ourselves back to where we should be, which is mindful in this moment. Thank you for your post Tom, it reminded me that "time killing" is a part of the practice of being mindful.

Gassho,
Stephen
Satlah

Hey Stephen

You make some interesting points here. For me, there are times when a bit of mindless surfing is just what it is, a distraction or diversion from the dishes or from the noise the kids are making in their bedrooms, and there are times when my youtube or google surfing has more purpose, and then there are times to set both aside and be still. We have a puppy in our house, if I sit still, he will eventually sit still with me, if I run around, he'll run around with me and be difficult to calm. As long as we are kind to ourselves when we pick ourselves up and bring our mind back to where we'd like it to be. We're trying to do a little better each day, and should therefore hold our expectations of ourselves lightly while still treating them as important and worthy of diligent effort.

I'm a trainee around here, so take what I say with half-a-grain of salt (or something smaller!)

Gassho, Tokan

satlah

[StephenB]

Hey Stephen

You make some interesting points here. For me, there are times when a bit of mindless surfing is just what it is, a distraction or diversion from the dishes or from the noise the kids are making in their bedrooms, and there are times when my youtube or google surfing has more purpose, and then there are times to set both aside and be still. We have a puppy in our house, if I sit still, he will eventually sit still with me, if I run around, he'll run around with me and be difficult to calm. As long as we are kind to ourselves when we pick ourselves up and bring our mind back to where we'd like it to be. We're trying to do a little better each day, and should therefore hold our expectations of ourselves lightly while still treating them as important and worthy of diligent effort.

I'm a trainee around here, so take what I say with half-a-grain of salt (or something smaller!)

Gassho, Tokan

satlah

Tokan,

Thank you for taking the time to read my post, as well as your response. I too am a beginner. Trying to maintain a beginners mind. All of our experiences with Zen is kaleidoscopic. Everyone's views are a part of the whole. I really liked how you pointed out how a puppy will sit with you, and run around with you. I remember a cartoon drawing of a person walking their dog with a dialogue box above the human who's mind was filled with all the worlds concerns, and a dialogue box above the dogs head that simply showed everything that was around them. The human's mind was full, and the dog's was mindful. It's a beautiful image. I remember living abroad in a country that I didn't at the time know the language. I would walk around a bit frustrated that I couldn't understand anyone. While walking through the park I noticed people playing with their dogs, who would follow the calls given them. I remember being jealous that even the dogs understood the language better than me. Sometimes while practicing Zen I see my dog, and I'm jealous that they can be more mindful and in the present moment better than I can. Thank you for responding.

Gassho, StephenB
satlah

[Tokan]

Tokan,

Thank you for taking the time to read my post, as well as your response. I too am a beginner. Trying to maintain a beginners mind. All of our experiences with Zen is kaleidoscopic. Everyone's views are a part of the whole. I really liked how you pointed out how a puppy will sit with you, and run around with you. I remember a cartoon drawing of a person walking their dog with a dialogue box above the human who's mind was filled with all the worlds concerns, and a dialogue box above the dogs head that simply showed everything that was around them. The human's mind was full, and the dog's was mindful. It's a beautiful image. I remember living abroad in a country that I didn't at the time know the language. I would walk around a bit frustrated that I couldn't understand anyone. While walking through the park I noticed people playing with their dogs, who would follow the calls given them. I remember being jealous that even the dogs understood the language better than me. Sometimes while practicing Zen I see my dog, and I'm jealous that they can be more mindful and in the present moment better than I can. Thank you for responding.

Gassho, StephenB
satlah

Tokan, stalah