Forgetting to Breathe… is this just me?

[Snow]

The title pretty well sums it up. In sitting Zazen I sometimes find myself sinking into the cushion and going into a sort of tunnel vision thoughtless state (which as a noisy minded individual is quite strange for me)… and I’ll come out of it when I realize I haven’t taken a breath for a bit and need to draw one.

Anybody else? Tips?

thanks

Sat/LAH
-E IMG_5367.jpg

[Jundo]

I spoke to a doctor once about this years ago (actually, related to scuba diving, as I recall, which I was doing at the time), and he assured me that "you cannot forget to breathe (absent some incredibly rare neurological disorder! ) ." The body may pause for a bit when relaxed, but it will breathe when necessary. In the slowing down of metabolism and tension in Zazen, breaths may greatly reduce (for example, I can sometimes breathe maybe twice a minute sometimes.) But I don't stop breathing.

Now, on the other hand, if you find yourself actually holding your breath, needing to gasp for breath ... that is just wrong. Don't do that. Keep on breathing at a slow, natural pace, not forced.

If you find yourself doing the following, well, you may be a Buddha in the making!

Then it occurred to the Bodhisatta [the Buddha to be]: “It would be good if I were to develop appanākajhāna by restraint of out-breathing and in-breathing.” ... So, with unrelenting effort, he kept on restraining exhalation and inhalation through his mouth, his nose and his ears, as before. ... Thereupon, the violent wind battered his head and as a result, he suffered from very severe ricking headaches. For example, it was like a great suffering caused by a man of tremendous strength who fastened a leather string around the head and tightened it ... His headaches were similar to this. ... Thereupon, the air of great intensity injured his abdomen as if carving it up. For example, it was as if a skilful butcher cut up the abdomen with a sharp butcher’s knife. ... Thereupon, the whole of his body suffered from violent burning ḍāharoga, ‘burning disease’. For example, it was like severe burnt when a weak man was grilled on a big heap of fire by two strong men, each on one side, holding him by the right arm and the the left. At that time, the whole of the Bodhisatta’s body remained burning hot. At the same time, his energy was not slackened but remained as strong as before. His mindfulness was extremely distinct and steadfast. On account of the trauma of his strenuous Exertion (padhāna), he could not, however, get peace. Nevertheless, his willingness to pursue the struggle remained unflinching. ...

Afflicted thus with a great heat all over his body, the Bodhisatta fainted ...

https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/the-great-chronicle-of-buddhas/d/doc364444.html

I advise against that.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Kaitan]

for example, I can sometimes breathe maybe twice a minute sometimes

I used to practice breath work technique called 'Okinaga', there isn't a lot of information out there about it, some papers mentioning that it does something to the vagus nerve. The point of it is to take only a breath, eventually, in just one minute. I never felt the benefits of it, but because I liked to do breath work it felt good.

Would you recommend doing this every now and then, Jundo?

Gassho

stlah, Kaitan

[Jundo]

I used to practice breath work technique called 'Okinaga', there isn't a lot of information out there about it, some papers mentioning that it does something to the vagus nerve. The point of it is to take only a breath, eventually, in just one minute. I never felt the benefits of it, but because I liked to do breath work it felt good.

Would you recommend doing this every now and then, Jundo?

Gassho

stlah, Kaitan

Master Dogen's advice, and basic Soto Zen advice, is just to breeze, slowly and naturally, although from nice and deep in the diaphragm. Do nothing strange or exotic with the breath, letting long breaths be long, short breaths just short. Just what is. As the breath enters and exits the nose, the hard borders of "inside" vs. "outside" may soften, even fully drop away.

Zazen for Beginners (11) - The Breath (LINK)

The Rinzai folks have all kinds of special breath practices. often to build concentration and samadhi states, but I see no use for them in Shikantaza, just sitting as what is.

However, Kaitan, I cannot tell you what to do in your spare time, when not practicing Shikantaza! You can watch a baseball game, go for a walk, do yoga, some breath thing you like ... whatever strikes your fancy that is not unhealthy or harmful.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Kaitan]

Master Dogen's advice, and basic Soto Zen advice, is just to breeze, slowly and naturally, although from nice and deep in the diaphragm. Do nothing strange or exotic with the breath, letting long breaths be long, short breaths just short. Just what is. As the breath enters and exits the nose, the hard borders of "inside" vs. "outside" may soften, even fully drop away.

Zazen for Beginners (11) - The Breath (LINK)

The Rinzai folks have all kinds of special breath practices. often to build concentration and samadhi states, but I see no use for them in Shikantaza, just sitting as what is.

However, Kaitan, I cannot tell you what to do in your spare time, when not practicing Shikantaza! You can watch a baseball game, go for a walk, do yoga, some breath thing you like ... whatever strikes your fancy that is not unhealthy or harmful.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Yes, I should've been more specific about when to do this technique; I meant doing this before or after zazen, it is definitely more healthy than staring a screen! I've noticed recently that I have a hard time to connect with my body and breath work seems to be more accessible at the moment.

Gassho

stlah, Kaitan

[Bion]

It rings a bell! Gosh, it's like reliving the beginning of my journey in Zen
I remember there was a period years ago, at the beginning, when I would become so hyper-focused on the breath that I would start to do and feel weird things. I would breathe extremely slow, or start to feel like I wasn't getting enough air. Jundo mentioned being very relaxed and the body just pauses, and I truly think it is like that. I have no advice or solution, but keep sitting and breathing normally, it'll go away.

Gassho
sat and lah

[Jundo]

Yes, I should've been more specific about when to do this technique; I meant doing this before or after zazen, it is definitely more healthy than staring a screen! I've noticed recently that I have a hard time to connect with my body and breath work seems to be more accessible at the moment.

Gassho

stlah, Kaitan

If it feels good, seems helpful, then do so.

Just don't do so, or any particular "intentional" act, during Shikantaza itself.

How's that.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Kaitan]

If it feels good, seems helpful, then do so.

Just don't do so, or any particular "intentional" act, during Shikantaza itself.

How's that.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

Yes, just sitting



stlah, Kaitan

[Tai Do]

It rings a bell! Gosh, it's like reliving the beginning of my journey in Zen
I remember there was a period years ago, at the beginning, when I would become so hyper-focused on the breath that I would start to do and feel weird things. I would breathe extremely slow, or start to feel like I wasn't getting enough air. Jundo mentioned being very relaxed and the body just pauses, and I truly think it is like that. I have no advice or solution, but keep sitting and breathing normally, it'll go away.

Gassho
sat and lah

I can relate to that, Bion. For almost 10 years I kept doing breath concentration (which gave me a lot of weird experiences) for fear that I was not still ready for Shikantaza. It was only after meeting Jundo and the Sangha it went away.
Gassho,
Tai Do
Satlah

[Seiko]

The title pretty well sums it up. In sitting Zazen I sometimes find myself sinking into the cushion and going into a sort of tunnel vision thoughtless state (which as a noisy minded individual is quite strange for me)… and I’ll come out of it when I realize I haven’t taken a breath for a bit and need to draw one.

Anybody else? Tips?

thanks

Sat/LAH
-E IMG_5367.jpg

Hey, Snow,

I am a trainee priest, so please take a few grains of salt with anything I say, I am no teacher.

Please continue breathing. We like you being alive.

In 1983, during Sesshin, I lost consciousness and was carried out of the zendo by two monks. It was a place that advocated breath counting/ breath control. It was a scary and confusing time for me.

I am sure you will do many good things in this life and world, and it all starts if you just keep breathing.

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

[Ryumon]

As Jundo said, you can’t really forget to breathe. However, your breathing can slow a lot when sitting zazen. Normally, we breathe about 15 to 20 times per minute. During Zen, I noticed that my breathing can get down to maybe five or six times per minute. (Yes, I have timed breaths out of curiosity.) If you’re not breathing enough, you’ll yawn; that’s the reflex when there’s too much CO2 in the blood.

There’s nothing wrong with breathing that slowly, you’ll notice that you’re in breaths are also slow and long. When playing shakuhachi, I can play a note - in other words, exhale blowing air into the instrument- for up to 20 seconds, and I’m not even a good shakuhachi player.

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat Lah