Dark Zazen Experience

[johns]

I'm not sure how to put this into words exactly. I was doing Zazen last night, and during it, everything fell away, and I "saw" dark emptiness, the final emptiness. Everything in terms of thought and life now was all truly empty, having nothing of its own, and almost meaning nothing as well. I felt fear as I saw it, and switched to following my breath to gain some balance, but the dark emptiness wouldn't budge. So I stopped trying to avoid the fear, and instead sat with it. That helped some, but after the timer bell rang, I felt shaken. I saw emptiness, for lack of a better term. More intensely, I experienced it, actually felt it.

This morning, I did Zazen, and still felt somewhat shaken, but much less so than last night. I am not sure what I experienced exactly. I wasn't mere thought, at least it didn't feel like that, it felt like genuine experience. Any insights would be appreciated.

Sorry for running long.

Gassho,

John

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

This is Maya, your mind playing tricks. Buddhism and Zen are not nihilistic. Emptiness is more like a flowing Wholeness, with beauty and some seeming direction, than a black pit.

Put this aside and move on.

Gassho, Jundo (heading to Fo Guang Shan Monastery in Taiwan in the morning)

stlah

[Tom A.]

Hi John!

It sounds similar to a panic attack. Jundo has said in the past that Zazen is done with a balance and a calmness that is like taking a bath, not like the sitting to attain a great experience that will finally end all hurt and sorrow forever as it seems to be the goal of some in Rinzai zen (I said “some,” Rinzai is a great tradition in its own right). In Soto Zen (as is said in ‘Zen Mind, Beginner’s mind’) is like a mist, rather than a rainstorm, getting wet over time, not drenched in a downpour, and over time our rough edges smooth out. I am certain Jundo has said all of this in the past, please don’t hold it against me if I got anything wrong (I may well have), I’m just another practitioner…

I do think this is very wise: “So I stopped trying to avoid the fear, and instead sat with it.“

Gassho,
Tom

Sat/Lah

[Rich]

For me true emptiness is not a dark place. It’s a place of light and freedom to respond to things as they are, as they appear. Not attached to thinking. Just being awake.

sat/lah

[Kokuu]

Hi John

Our minds can be strange places and that sounds like an uncomfortable experience and a dark place to encounter.

What I would say is that what we encounter in sitting is not necessarily indicative of reality. Of course, you are experiencing it so it feels very real and very visceral, yet thoughts and emotional states come and go. It may be you experience this state again or you may not. All things are dependently arisen and a combination of causes and conditions gave rise to your experience and this may or not happen again.

What Rich says is true, this is not emptiness in the Buddhist sense of sunyata, which in my experience is a deep and rich interconnectedness of all things rather than a nihilistic black hole. The term emptiness can imply nihilism but sometimes I think that 'boundlessness' might be a better word to point to this.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Tai Do]

Hi John,
I tend to view emptiness like an empty glass, where we can put all kinds of drinks, instead of a full glass, that can't be filled by anything - when the self is present, we can't be filled by the ten thousand things of reality. To me emptiness is not darkness nor light, but open to both in an equanimous way. Sometimes we experience strange things while sitting - I sometimes see rings of different colors contracting and expanding, probably caused by the luminosity of my room [sorry for the long post].
Gassho,
Tai Do
Satlah