Secular/Religious Buddhism, which are we?

[michaelw]

The best answer I found to that question is:
some people say it is a religion
some people say it is a philosophy
some people say it is neither
some people say it is both

Gassho
MichaelW

satlah

[Austin]

There are! The main one in which he talks about his view on Buddhism as a religion is one edited (translated?) and published by Jundo called A Heart-to-Heart Chat on Buddhism with Old Master Gudo.

Personally, I don't really worry about the terms secular and religious, but Nishijima Roshi's take on practice is very interesting and something which I believe we hold true to at Treeleaf.

There is a whole archive of Nishijima Roshi material at shobogenzo.net which includes audio, video and text.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Thank you Kokuu. I have downloaded it for Kindle. I didn't know about this book. I am thankful to you and everyone in this Sangha

Gasshō,
Austin

stlah

[Ryker]

There are! The main one in which he talks about his view on Buddhism as a religion is one edited (translated?) and published by Jundo called A Heart-to-Heart Chat on Buddhism with Old Master Gudo.

Personally, I don't really worry about the terms secular and religious, but Nishijima Roshi's take on practice is very interesting and something which I believe we hold true to at Treeleaf.

There is a whole archive of Nishijima Roshi material at shobogenzo.net which includes audio, video and text.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Thanks so much Kokuu!
I got a ton of books to get it looks like once I got the funds.

Gasshō,Ryker

Sat/Lah

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[Ryker]

Hi Ryker,


I saw that thread as well. I read a little but I decided it was best for me to not get involved. But I don't mind expressing my views here. That said, my take on the issue is that it doesn't really matter. Unfortunately, in these types of discussions people seldom take the time to define their terms. This is really important because we aren't always talking about the same thing. Or our understanding isn't as clear as we might think it is. Or what might be considered a religious practice might also be considered a cultural norm. I'm married but it wasn't a religious affair, we were married by a judge at a bed and breakfast, and yet marrage is very much a religious practice for some where I live. It's very important to some people that they get married in this or that church. But is it because they feel it's important to God or to their relationship to God or is it because it's tradition? Or maybe they don't want to anger their religious parents?

The term religion was something that people created to try and catagorize cultural phenomenon. Terms like religion or culture don't carve nature at the joints so to speak. We tend to think of our concepts as being neatly divided like peices of a puzzle or two rocks. It's very easy to tell two solid objects apart because they clear and distinct dimensions. But when we start to talk about abstract terms it much less clear. It's easy to tell two trees apart but we we start asking questions about the forest it can get a little fuzzier. For example, where does the forest begin? I think our default answer is to say "it begins at the first tree we see and it ends at the last." This would be the same as treating the forest like a single tree. But why couldn't the forest begin in the middle and radate outwards? Or why couldn't it be the third tree and move a little to the left side and then all the way to the right side? The forest is the collection of trees and each tree is essential for the forest to be what it is at any one moment. Does a forest even have a beginning? I think the answer is yes when we are talking about navigation or territory because we are interested in the demarcations of land. The relevant information in this situation would be the first and last trees we see. But if we aren't applying that kind of conceptual framework (which isn't something we do conciously) then I don't think it does. I think the forest is just the forest or just this.

So coming back to religious vs secular, I don't think the distiction matters to much. Or if it does matter it's only in certain circumstances. Just like we tend to treat our abstract concepts as neat and tidy we also treat them as if they are the things themselves rather than a way of organizing information or identifying patterns and relationships between things and actions. I'm not being terribly clear here but my point is just because one can apply a concept to a situation doesn't mean they should always do so. Concepts can obscure just as much as they can illumunate.


My appologies for the length.

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

Ya know I can absolutely agree with this, thank you so much for this, sorry my own post is super small in comparison.

Also yeah I took a peak at it and it was just so much of people almso shitting on other Buddhists, actual made me end up leaving that sub, it just seemed wrong to me.

Gasshō Ryker

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[Hoseki]

Ya know I can absolutely agree with this, thank you so much for this, sorry my own post is super small in comparison.

Also yeah I took a peak at it and it was just so much of people almso shitting on other Buddhists, actual made me end up leaving that sub, it just seemed wrong to me.

Gasshō Ryker

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Hi Ryker,

I'm glad it was helpful! It can be tough when we hold on to our ideas too tightly. Which in my experence it has to do how closely those ideas are tied to our self concept. For my part I try to ask myself what those ideas from the others schools do for and to us. How would those ideas affect my thoughts, feelings and actions. Whether or not the hell realms are real what matters is how I would think, feel and act if they are real and I think we get a similar responce when we think of the hell realms as a metaphor for the kinds of states we can find ourselves in (I think I'm just echoing Jundo here.)

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

[michaelw]

I ran across this book and have been reading it during Ango.
I think it answers everything raised in this thread plus some.

Reimagining Zen in a Secular Age - Andre van der Braak.

Zen in this context is a generic term that encompases all forms of Zen practice.
Very readable and often amusing and very expensive so struggling with a pdf off Terebess.
I just missed one on ebay so might have to buy my own.

Gassho
MichaelW

satlah

[StephenB]

Back in 2016, I was going through a lot of personal problems. A friend of mine, who was seeing a therapist, had read the book Mindfulness in plain English and encouraged me to read it. At first I was reluctant to read anything outside of my house of faith. As I read about what meditation was, and how to mindfully sit in awareness a gateless gate opened in my mind. As I read Buddhist principles and saw that they were not in conflict with the Christian values or practices of which I was accustomed I had a small awakening, and what felt a moment of enlightenment. I began reading and listening to everything and anything I could get my hands on. While there were moments where I felt that I was becoming a devout religious Buddhist, there were also plenty of times where it became an intellectual pursuit. I could see that one could practice zazen in the modality of secularism and learn about spiritual transcendental truths. I could also apply what I was learning in my own religious practices, melding two faith traditions in one. While for some this comingling of religious beliefs may seem unorthodox or even taboo, I recognized that both my secular interests and religious interests where being met in a harmonious dance that I haven't really experienced in any other way. So, for me there are times when I am practicing zazen in a secular way, and then there are times when I'm sitting and being aware of my religious inclinations. It is a nice balance, instead of a competition to see which one is superior.

Stlah

[Green Ben]

Back in 2016, I was going through a lot of personal problems. A friend of mine, who was seeing a therapist, had read the book Mindfulness in plain English and encouraged me to read it. At first I was reluctant to read anything outside of my house of faith. As I read about what meditation was, and how to mindfully sit in awareness a gateless gate opened in my mind. As I read Buddhist principles and saw that they were not in conflict with the Christian values or practices of which I was accustomed I had a small awakening, and what felt a moment of enlightenment. I began reading and listening to everything and anything I could get my hands on. While there were moments where I felt that I was becoming a devout religious Buddhist, there were also plenty of times where it became an intellectual pursuit. I could see that one could practice zazen in the modality of secularism and learn about spiritual transcendental truths. I could also apply what I was learning in my own religious practices, melding two faith traditions in one. While for some this comingling of religious beliefs may seem unorthodox or even taboo, I recognized that both my secular interests and religious interests where being met in a harmonious dance that I haven't really experienced in any other way. So, for me there are times when I am practicing zazen in a secular way, and then there are times when I'm sitting and being aware of my religious inclinations. It is a nice balance, instead of a competition to see which one is superior.

Stlah

I feel you on this.
I was raised a Jesus Freak, evangelical, slightly culty. Bible studies and services in my house three times a week, and basically all the time, for probably 75% of my first 10 years.
In my late 20's my spiritual seeking led me to Freemasonry. When they asked me about my religious beliefs, I told them I was a Christian who found that practicing Zen was the most effective practice for making me a good Christian. At the time, I felt a smidgen of guilt, that I was bending the 4th precept, as I really identified like 90% Zen at that point.
Looking back now, that was about the most honest answer I could give.

Sorry for running long.

Gassho

stlah