[HEALTH] How to let go of desires of self harm?

[Ryker]

Trigger Warning: Mentions of self harm, drug use, suicide attempts.

I'm gonna try to not make this massively HEAVY content wise but apologies if it ends up being so for someone here.

When I was younger, maybe around 15 after my dad passed suddenly is when it all started, I became depressed, got into smoking and cutting/burning my skin, drinking, and when it got really bad, several suicide attempts through the years.

I am now 33, I haven't had a drink in over 9 years, haven't touched a cig/vape in around 8 and haven't cut myself in about 8-9 yrs as well.

But the desires are still there, not so much with drinking but when I'm stressed I want that cig or when I'm super depressed but not suicidal I want to self harm. Unfortunately I still have suicidal ideation, usually surrounding our financial situation and not being a "burden", I know I shouldn't think like that tho, even my husband tells me not to same with my therapist.

So while this thankfully has not come up recently, I do still struggle with it and I'm not sure, how to..well not?

Sorry for this running long, kinda hard with this subject matter I suppose.

Gasshō, Ryker
Sat today, Lah

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[Jishin]

I control:
1. My voluntary thinking in the present.
2. My voluntary actions in the present.
I have less control over:
1. Past.
2. Future.
3. People.
4. Places.
5. Things.
6. My involuntary thinking.
7. My involuntary actions.
8. My feelings.

I don’t control what happens.

I control how I react to what happens.

I can change the way I feel by changing my voluntary thinking or my voluntary actions or both.

My self harm thoughts are involuntary. They just pop up and I don’t control them. I do control what I chose to think after they appear.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Ryker]

I control:
1. My voluntary thinking in the present.
2. My voluntary actions in the present.
I have less control over:
1. Past.
2. Future.
3. People.
4. Places.
5. Things.
6. My involuntary thinking.
7. My involuntary actions.
8. My feelings.

I don’t control what happens.

I control how I react to what happens.

I can change the way I feel by changing my voluntary thinking or my voluntary actions or both.

My self harm thoughts are involuntary. They just pop up and I don’t control them. I do control what I chose to think after they appear.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

Ya know this is super nice to read, usually I don't have any positive thoughts when they arrive or really after, I am just there and usually they just disappear after awhile, usually due to crying and being exhausted.

So to do this should help, thank you Jishin. I hope I can help people someday like this.

Gasshō, Ryker
Sat/Lah

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[Jishin]

[emoji106]

[Jundo]

I do not have particular personal experience with self-harming thoughts (although I was very depressed several decades ago). We do have some members who share such suffering, so perhaps some may feel comfortable to say something.

I am going to move this thread to our [HEALTH] area, if I may.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Ryker]

I do not have particular personal experience with self-harming thoughts (although I was very depressed several decades ago). We do have some members who share such suffering, so perhaps some may feel comfortable to say something.

I am going to move this thread to our [HEALTH] area, if I may.

Gassho, J

stlah

That would be great, thank u for moving it to the right place.

Thank u for commenting as well.

Gasshō, Ryker

Sat/Lah

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[Koushi]

Hi Ryker,

First, thank you for sharing. It's not always easy, being this open and vulnerable.

I'm no mental health professional; however, I can speak a bit about my own personal experience with SI and such. I've had passive SI daily since I was 11, so going on 26 years now. Sometimes it's been active ideation. But for the vast majority of 26 years it's been daily passive SI.

At its core, as Jishin alluded to, what helped me the most over the long haul (much like the alcoholism I also live alongside) is learning how to allow them to be thoughts. It's not to say that SI isn't a serious thing, but recognizing that the thoughts and emotions themselves, by themselves, are not harmful. Although zazen and zen practice have helped along the way, I would be dishonest to say that's all that may be needed.

From a practical standpoint, there are a few things that help me daily and keep me on the good track:

- Keeping track of my moods and situations, so that I can see when I most have the SI and what/when it could be triggered most
- Keeping a written journal to get whats inside of my head down on paper. It does help to clear clutter a bit
- Having a "crisis" plan in place for those times where I catch myself heading from passive to active. I've got a notecard on me or close by with actionable steps, friends/good family to call, hotline numbers, etc. Just knowing that I have a "plan" when things gets tough puts my mind more at ease—knowing I'm not without steps I can take.

And at the end, aside from highly suggesting to have a good therapist (I believe we all need one), what also helps me is being at peace with the idea that this condition may not be something that ever goes away during my lifetime. It's an annoying old friend who talks loudly sometimes—but nowadays it's more a background voice if anything. Taking the weight off of my shoulders from wanting things to be gone/different has helped a lot.

To wrap up though, again, I'm not a professional, this is just my own personal experience—and it does vary greatly from person to person. Ultimately, trust in those around you who love and care for you, and know you aren't alone at all in how you feel.

Gassho,
Koushi
ST

[Chikyou]

I control:
1. My voluntary thinking in the present.
2. My voluntary actions in the present.
I have less control over:
1. Past.
2. Future.
3. People.
4. Places.
5. Things.
6. My involuntary thinking.
7. My involuntary actions.
8. My feelings.

I don’t control what happens.

I control how I react to what happens.

I can change the way I feel by changing my voluntary thinking or my voluntary actions or both.

My self harm thoughts are involuntary. They just pop up and I don’t control them. I do control what I chose to think after they appear.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

This is so true. I struggled with SI and various mental health issues for years, and I struggle much less now.

Learning to a) not react to thoughts and b) not get caught up in thoughts were two of the biggest things for me. (As well as learning how to be in touch with my emotions and my body, and taking care of my body's needs - namely, getting enough sleep, and enough water).

It took a long time and a lot of practice to learn how to let thoughts pass without reacting to them (Zen practice was the biggest game changer here! I'm forever grateful for it). For much of my life I've been told to "just think about something else" or "stop worrying about it" but that's not something I could do without training. It's a skill that had to be developed, with plenty of compassion for myself along the way.

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

[Ryker]

Hi Ryker,

First, thank you for sharing. It's not always easy, being this open and vulnerable.

I'm no mental health professional; however, I can speak a bit about my own personal experience with SI and such. I've had passive SI daily since I was 11, so going on 26 years now. Sometimes it's been active ideation. But for the vast majority of 26 years it's been daily passive SI.

At its core, as Jishin alluded to, what helped me the most over the long haul (much like the alcoholism I also live alongside) is learning how to allow them to be thoughts. It's not to say that SI isn't a serious thing, but recognizing that the thoughts and emotions themselves, by themselves, are not harmful. Although zazen and zen practice have helped along the way, I would be dishonest to say that's all that may be needed.

From a practical standpoint, there are a few things that help me daily and keep me on the good track:

- Keeping track of my moods and situations, so that I can see when I most have the SI and what/when it could be triggered most
- Keeping a written journal to get whats inside of my head down on paper. It does help to clear clutter a bit
- Having a "crisis" plan in place for those times where I catch myself heading from passive to active. I've got a notecard on me or close by with actionable steps, friends/good family to call, hotline numbers, etc. Just knowing that I have a "plan" when things gets tough puts my mind more at ease—knowing I'm not without steps I can take.

And at the end, aside from highly suggesting to have a good therapist (I believe we all need one), what also helps me is being at peace with the idea that this condition may not be something that ever goes away during my lifetime. It's an annoying old friend who talks loudly sometimes—but nowadays it's more a background voice if anything. Taking the weight off of my shoulders from wanting things to be gone/different has helped a lot.

To wrap up though, again, I'm not a professional, this is just my own personal experience—and it does vary greatly from person to person. Ultimately, trust in those around you who love and care for you, and know you aren't alone at all in how you feel.

Gassho,
Koushi
ST

Hey Koushi,

Thank you for saying that and giving such advice here, I never even thought of a crisis plan so I'll for sure get started on one, also with journaling and to see what's triggers me, I got an idea tho that's kinda hard to fix. (Financial)

I really appreciate all u put down, it's very thoughtful and helpful.

I do see ZaZen at minimum helping out tho as it's already helped with my stress here and there, I know outside sources are obviously needed as well.

Gasshō, Ryker
Sat today/Lah

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[Ryker]

This is so true. I struggled with SI and various mental health issues for years, and I struggle much less now.

Learning to a) not react to thoughts and b) not get caught up in thoughts were two of the biggest things for me. (As well as learning how to be in touch with my emotions and my body, and taking care of my body's needs - namely, getting enough sleep, and enough water).

It took a long time and a lot of practice to learn how to let thoughts pass without reacting to them (Zen practice was the biggest game changer here! I'm forever grateful for it). For much of my life I've been told to "just think about something else" or "stop worrying about it" but that's not something I could do without training. It's a skill that had to be developed, with plenty of compassion for myself along the way.

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

Yes absolutely, not letting the thoughts control u and letting them pass or even pushing them away has helped me, granted I have yet to try this exact method but I'm looking forward to it as it seems similar to what I have already done in the past when I'm able to.

Yeah I heard the "stop worrying about it" or "let it go" as well as if it's so easy without some kind of training, that's another reason I'm interested, even if it takes a long time, for ZaZen to really help me take control of parts of my life.

Gasshō, Ryker
Sat/Lah

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[Tokan]

Hey Ryker

Some years ago I read a book about OCD (the 'thing' I have) which placed the 'blame' squarely on faulty brain circuitry - therefore the intrusive thoughts cannot be stopped, but (like Jishin says) how I react to them is very much in my control. Before I understood this I was a victim of OCD, since I read that book I became the boss, though I have to let it have some slack once in a while, like a pressure cooker letting off steam. Why am I referring to this, well, not too long ago I read something about research into people with chronic or persistent suicidal ideation and, guess what, they found some links to specific parts of the brain, suggesting that a similar process might be in play. So often, the people I work with (I'm a psych nurse) blame themselves for these thoughts, sometimes with the double-whammy of feeling guilty for having such thoughts as well. Now I'm no Zen teacher, so take what I say with a handful of salt, but one of the practices that helped me was radical self-acceptance, sitting with what is, as in shikantaza zazen. Radical self-acceptance sounds like a very active and proactive process, but I found it to be quite simple, gentle (most of the time), and self-forgiving, if not a little unnerving initially when I realised that what I am has not a lot to do with my conscious input lol, but that's another story.

One other thing I found useful in supporting people with suicidal ideation, is the concept of the 'suicide decision.' In a nutshell, this means that once the mind rationalises that suicide is an option to resolve a problem, the person has 'decided' that this option is allowed on the table of options. Once that crisis is resolved the person may not think about suicide again for many years but, when a similarly challenging situation occurs, there it is once more, the theory being that it has been accepted by the mind as an option. I have found this idea quite helpful in supporting people who have been shaken by the re-emergence of these thoughts after many years of silence, sometimes they report these thoughts feel more unnerving than the first time they happened, because they say it feels like a 'hidden propensity' towards self-harm when under threat or pressure.

Always remember too, and this goes for anyone reading this thread, you are not alone - you are not alone, there is always someone you can talk to, even the person at the gas station or 24 hour food store. Seek professional help, but seek help anywhere you can - neighbours, friends, family, tutor, pets. Keep crisis helpline numbers on your phone and know what makes things worse for you (to avoid) and what makes things better (to practice).

I'm not offering this in any way as professional advice, you have a face to face therapist for that. and I say again, I am a novice-priest, so please don't take what I say as teaching or direction.

Gassho, Tokan

satlah

[Ryker]

Hey Ryker

Some years ago I read a book about OCD (the 'thing' I have) which placed the 'blame' squarely on faulty brain circuitry - therefore the intrusive thoughts cannot be stopped, but (like Jishin says) how I react to them is very much in my control. Before I understood this I was a victim of OCD, since I read that book I became the boss, though I have to let it have some slack once in a while, like a pressure cooker letting off steam. Why am I referring to this, well, not too long ago I read something about research into people with chronic or persistent suicidal ideation and, guess what, they found some links to specific parts of the brain, suggesting that a similar process might be in play. So often, the people I work with (I'm a psych nurse) blame themselves for these thoughts, sometimes with the double-whammy of feeling guilty for having such thoughts as well. Now I'm no Zen teacher, so take what I say with a handful of salt, but one of the practices that helped me was radical self-acceptance, sitting with what is, as in shikantaza zazen. Radical self-acceptance sounds like a very active and proactive process, but I found it to be quite simple, gentle (most of the time), and self-forgiving, if not a little unnerving initially when I realised that what I am has not a lot to do with my conscious input lol, but that's another story.

One other thing I found useful in supporting people with suicidal ideation, is the concept of the 'suicide decision.' In a nutshell, this means that once the mind rationalises that suicide is an option to resolve a problem, the person has 'decided' that this option is allowed on the table of options. Once that crisis is resolved the person may not think about suicide again for many years but, when a similarly challenging situation occurs, there it is once more, the theory being that it has been accepted by the mind as an option. I have found this idea quite helpful in supporting people who have been shaken by the re-emergence of these thoughts after many years of silence, sometimes they report these thoughts feel more unnerving than the first time they happened, because they say it feels like a 'hidden propensity' towards self-harm when under threat or pressure.

Always remember too, and this goes for anyone reading this thread, you are not alone - you are not alone, there is always someone you can talk to, even the person at the gas station or 24 hour food store. Seek professional help, but seek help anywhere you can - neighbours, friends, family, tutor, pets. Keep crisis helpline numbers on your phone and know what makes things worse for you (to avoid) and what makes things better (to practice).

I'm not offering this in any way as professional advice, you have a face to face therapist for that. and I say again, I am a novice-priest, so please don't take what I say as teaching or direction.

Gassho, Tokan

satlah

Thank you so much for this Tokan

Gasshō, Ryker
Sat today, to exhausted to Lah just now

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[Onki]

Hey Ryker,

Good for you for not smoking, self harming, and not drinking for all of those years. That, in itself, is something to be celebrated. Amazing work [emoji4]

I also struggle as well with obsessive compulsive thoughts, suicidal/self harm thoughts, and mental illness.

I wish I could tell you of all the things that have “fixed me;” rid me of these burdens in my mind. But, that would not be true.

Despite my saying this, please do not lose hope. I do have a few sentiments that may prove helpful.

What I, as well as the Sangha, can offer you is ongoing support, understanding, and friendship through these urges and thoughts as well as during sunny days.

I understand the difficulty and challenge that these self sabotaging behaviours/thoughts can be. Grabbing ahold of us and telling us we are worthless, nothingness, what is even the point? I’ve been there and, to be completely honest, I’m still there.

I have found that therapy has helped me profoundly, in spite of its emotional intensity, financial cost, and time commitment.

Getting into a regular Zazen Practice where I work on not clinging or getting caught up in those self destructive thoughts that will inevitably pop up in my mind is integral. Acknowledge these thoughts, and move on.

An absolute favourite quote of mine from Suzuki Roshi, “Let your thoughts come and go. Just do not serve them tea.”

I am nowhere perfect when it comes to Practicing this but that’s the point. There is no perfection.

Practice sincerely, with a dedicated and open heart, and keep putting one foot in front of the other. You’re doing it right.

Much metta to you, Ryker, and to those who struggle with intrusive thoughts, mental illness, and addiction. Please know I am here for you as well as the Sangha.

You are not alone.

Gasshō,

On

Sat today/LAH

[Ryker]

Hey Ryker,

Good for you for not smoking, self harming, and not drinking for all of those years. That, in itself, is something to be celebrated. Amazing work [emoji4]

I also struggle as well with obsessive compulsive thoughts, suicidal/self harm thoughts, and mental illness.

I wish I could tell you of all the things that have “fixed me;” rid me of these burdens in my mind. But, that would not be true.

Despite my saying this, please do not lose hope. I do have a few sentiments that may prove helpful.

What I, as well as the Sangha, can offer you is ongoing support, understanding, and friendship through these urges and thoughts as well as during sunny days.

I understand the difficulty and challenge that these self sabotaging behaviours/thoughts can be. Grabbing ahold of us and telling us we are worthless, nothingness, what is even the point? I’ve been there and, to be completely honest, I’m still there.

I have found that therapy has helped me profoundly, in spite of its emotional intensity, financial cost, and time commitment.

Getting into a regular Zazen Practice where I work on not clinging or getting caught up in those self destructive thoughts that will inevitably pop up in my mind is integral. Acknowledge these thoughts, and move on.

An absolute favourite quote of mine from Suzuki Roshi, “Let your thoughts come and go. Just do not serve them tea.”

I am nowhere perfect when it comes to Practicing this but that’s the point. There is no perfection.

Practice sincerely, with a dedicated and open heart, and keep putting one foot in front of the other. You’re doing it right.

Much metta to you, Ryker, and to those who struggle with intrusive thoughts, mental illness, and addiction. Please know I am here for you as well as the Sangha.

You are not alone.

Gasshō,

On

Sat today/LAH

Your gonna make me cry :')
Thank you Onki, also I'm stealing that quote to read always, it's beautiful.

Gasshō, Ryker
Sat today

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[Tai Shi]

I was 25-years-old,
Spring, April, lost
My job, lost my lady
Friend, family gone
Thought no one loved
Me, Mr Psychiatrist
Doctor of Medicine
MD, prescribed
Wrong medication
I lived through
Suicide attempt,
I lived through
Drinking
Drugging
Thus, self harm
Was gone with
Advanced therapy,
PhD Dr more than friend,
He was my therapist
Of Rational Thought,
He taught me to think
Through, to take
Proper medications
To stop before
Irrational thinking,
Friendship found
Finding my ability
To make right thinking
Eventually another PhD
Therapist returned
To thought, now I
Sit zazen, I talk
With these great
Men who help
Now my medicine
Is so advanced
I take small amount
Only once per day
Fine Dr Psychiatrist
Has found me
In healthful
Way, my healthy
Medicine and friends
In Doctors, one MD
One PhD, for first
Time in all my life
I am free of thinking
Of self harm, advanced
Treatments, I think
Back to first PhD
We rationally
Realized this
Sickness
Could be
Controlled
With good medication
Cognition gave me,
Now has thought
Helped with zazen
Shikantaza
Thought stilled
No illegals
Now legally
I am happy,
I am BA, MA,
EdS, MFA
Friends, realize
I have been
Professor, writing,
Taught daughter
To be Professor
Dr of Philosophy, writer,
She has gone Beyond father,
Now she sees, PhD therapist
Well she is daughter like father
Gone way beyond, and still
Sees, reality thorough
Thinking, education, she
Is PhD, Still our help
Our realization,
Cognition our tool,
Mindfulness, she has
Found her own BA,
MFA, PhD she is her own
Dr of Japanese.
Our understanding
Like Buddha, we found
Loving Kindness
Our thoughts
In patterns
So healthful.
Grand
Education
Our friendship
Our need
Father and mother
Good for Each
Other, Mothjer BA highest
MA highest so Daughter like
Flower. like mother
Beauty, both
With friendship
Found, loving kindness!

Gassho
sat/lah
Thank you all. _/|\_