[FutureBuddha: Hunches] Coin flip

[Matt Johnson]

This is all I have to say...

https://youtu.be/THSY7-CxKnQ?si=jHubc7Tzf8GXXZZb

_/\_
Sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

This is all I have to say...

42!

Well, I will just point out that a whale popping up in the middle of time and space, fully formed and self-aware as a philosophical whale, is possible. It is highly unlikely however.

But if billions of whales keep popping up like that (just as there are billions of self-aware human beings), there is likely a mechanism to explain it beyond "it just happened." Likewise, if the whale is you, and you are actually the one experiencing the event now (rather than some animation on youtube) that is also especially strange, and may point at something more in need of explaining. It is one thing to talk about a rando anime whale in a story ... and another thing to find oneself (Matt) suddenly, without explanation, falling through the air.

And I will also point out that the particular whale in the video popped up because Douglas Adams, a story creator, made a story in which a character popped up who said and did what the video shows. So, Douglas Adams is actually the "special explanation" for that whale.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Matt Johnson]

42!

Well, I will just point out that a whale popping up in the middle of time and space, fully formed and self-aware as a philosophical whale, is possible. It is highly unlikely however.

I think the word you're looking for is "improbable." and though Heart of gold's improbability Drive may be fictional, the idea that underpins it is worth considering. Given an infinite universe nothing is improbable. Moreover, we have no basis to be able to make the Judgement of how probable or not probable things are on that scale. There is also of course the issue of quantum phenomena at the macro level.

So essentially what you're saying is, you are with Einstein, that God does not play dice? Yeah he had a lot of problems accepting indeterminacy. But just because you guys can't accept it does not mean it is not so.

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

I think the word you're looking for is "improbable." and though Heart of gold's improbability Drive may be fictional, the idea that underpins it is worth considering. Given an infinite universe nothing is improbable. Moreover, we have no basis to be able to make the Judgement of how probable or not probable things are on that scale. There is also of course the issue of quantum phenomena at the macro level.

So essentially what you're saying is, you are with Einstein, that God does not play dice? Yeah he had a lot of problems accepting indeterminacy. But just because you guys can't accept it does not mean it is not so.

Well, that is one of the possible explanations, that EVERYTHING happens. It may be true for subatomic particles and such, yes.

It does not seem to be the rule, however, on a macro level in this universe, i.e., toast does not appear without toasters, perfect Michelangelo sculptures do not get carved by the wind, oaks do not grow without acorns, and whales do not fall from the sky. Why is that? If everything happens, and can happen any time, would it not be more obvious? Would not whales fall from the sky more, and mysterious sculptures appear on mountains? However, self-aware Matt (this one here and now) is the exception to that, and his falling from the sky (or from his mother's womb) without a special cause is because "everything happens." Hmmm.

And it is not any Matt (a clone, experiencing its version of Matt, but not self-aware you) who is here and now, nor a Matt clone across the galaxies or at another time or in some alternative space-time ... but this very one (you) experiencing yourself now because ... everything happens.

It could be.

On the theme of our Precept discussion on stealing, I will help myself to some diamonds at the jewelry store and, when the police find them in my pocket, I will explain your notion that "everything happens" so they just appeared there. It sounds like a solid defense.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Matt Johnson]

Good morning!

Well, that is one of the possible explanations, that EVERYTHING happens. It may be true for subatomic particles and such, yes.

Yes EVERYTHING happens separated only by time and space etc. The laws of the universe may not even be the same from one part of this universe to the other (we just assume they are).

It does not seem to be the rule, however, on a macro level in this universe, i.e., toast does not appear without toasters, perfect Michelangelo sculptures do not get carved by the wind, oaks do not grow without acorns, and whales do not fall from the sky. Why is that? If everything happens, and can happen any time, would it not be more obvious? Would not whales fall from the sky more, and mysterious sculptures appear on mountains? However, self-aware Matt (this one here and now) is the exception to that, and his falling from the sky (or from his mother's womb) without a special cause is because "everything happens." Hmmm.

At this scale and from Jundo's limited point of view it would appear that only certain things which fit within his prior conditioning can occur (or can be observed by him).

The way the universe works here might seem completely improbable to residents of the exoplanet near Luhman 16.

On the theme of our Precept discussion on stealing, I will help myself to some diamonds at the jewelry store and, when the police find them in my pocket, I will explain your notion that "everything happens" so they just appeared there. It sounds like a solid defense.

Allowing for the fact that anything can happen at any time does not contradict our simultaneous understanding of how other people rigidly think that only certain things can happen at certain times.

I have had many conversations with my father (retired judge) about the philosophical underpinnings of our legal system. It is true that for our laws and our punishments to be applicable we need to assume the existence of an unchanging self separate from other selves (otherwise the person doing the time is not the person who did the crime).

I have often thought of a funny skit between a Buddhist lawyer using the buddhist concept of no-self to defend his client.

However, the notion of restorative justice exists because we acknowledge that people can change. The person doing to time may in fact literally no longer be the person who did the crime.

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

Hmmm. The day a whale falls on my head, I will reconsider my opinion.

I do know delusional people who think that they see falling whales.

Granted, it is physically possible that atoms could wildly arrange themselves as an intelligent whale falling from the sky. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics says that it is most unlikely.

I will let the people on Luhman 16 deal with their "anything can happen" universe. You posit a reality where anything can happen, but I am asking why you appeared on this world here and now. You are imagining something that might be (whales falling from space, oaks that grow without acorns, purely as "may be" imaginary as a Douglas Adams story.) I am pointing to something that actually happened (you in the world for no known reason.)

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Matt Johnson]

Hmmm. The day a whale falls on my head, I will reconsider my opinion.

It's the petunias you have to be more afraid of.

I do know delusional people who think that they see falling whales.

Granted, it is physically possible that atoms could wildly arrange themselves as an intelligent whale falling from the sky. The 2nd Law of Entropy says that it is most unlikely.

The atoms can and did arrange themselves to form something equally unlikely and inexplicable. Jundo...

I will let the people on Luhman 16 deal with their "anything can happen" universe. You posit a reality where anything can happen, but I am asking why you appeared on this world here and now.

The people on exoplanet orbiting Luhman 16 are not people (No self-respecting life would find itself living on a star except maybe astrophage). They are intelligent lichen who ask themselves every moment of everyday why they appeared in this world here and now.

You are imagining something that might be (whales falling from space, oaks that grow without acorns, purely as "may be" imaginary as a Douglas Adams story.) I am pointing to something that actually happened (you in the world for no known reason.)

You are also imagining something that might be. As it has already happened and is not currently the case (the Matt of our last conversation is no longer the Matt of this conversation) and anyway at your age your memory is as imaginary as my falling whale.

Again, you being stuck in boring cause and effect thinking is fine as long as it doesn't hurt you or anyone else.

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

The atoms can and did arrange themselves to form something equally unlikely and inexplicable. Jundo...

Yes, because of special explanations that defeated the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, e.g., my DNA inherited from my parents constructed proteins and stem cells that formed my bodily structure. It is tremendously unlikely that my molecules would have assembled as me without such a mechanism. Likewise, our appearing in the middle of time and space may also have a mechanism which defeats the tremendously great odds of the event not happening. Either could be chance events (my molecules could have randomly self-assembled as me), but there being a mechanism which brought about that specific outcome (inherited DNA and RNA which make proteins) is much more likely.

You are like someone in ancient centuries who does not want to believe in DNA simply because the mechanism was then not yet discovered. You think that people and roses and dogs and cats appear because of random chance.

the Matt of our last conversation is no longer the Matt of this conversation

You misuse this Buddhist principle. In one sense, because all things are constantly changing, you are not the Matt of a moment before. On the other hand, you are (before and now and after) the specific chain of cause-effect which brought about this changing Matt right now. I am talking about such a causal stream that led to your conception and birth.

You really do remind me of someone who thinks that the rabbit just appeared in the magicians hat simply because they do not know about the trick of the hidden compartment. I admitted that our appearance on this planet (or the rabbit appearing in the hat) could be simple chance (however ridiculously unlikely) or "anything might happen." Why are you afraid to admit that there could be an as yet not understood "magician's trick" or "loaded deck" of nature?

Gassho, J
stlah

[Tokan]

Hi all

Although this area of the forum is open to larger debate, reading through this discussion this morning, it strikes me that there is quite an argumentative tone to some of the comments. We can all hypothesise about what the nature of reality and chance or determination is and how it influences the universe from superclusters to quarks, but our manner of discussing these topics should be in a friendly way, seeking to expand understanding, and be interesting for those reading and not contributing.

Matt, I would not for one minute suggest you be silent, but there are times when it is worth reflecting on the value of continuing a debate that has clearly gone off course. In this place, and during Ango, part of what we do is look more deeply into ourselves and our commitment to the path of practice, which includes our speech and attachment to ideas. Even when, and this has happened before, Jundo's ideas appear radical or provocative, our manner of engaging in the debate should still be guided by our vows and precepts, or just basic manners.

Please, no offence is intended, but sometimes these debates need to be closed, with kindness, and a respectful agreement that we cannot all see things the same way.

Take anything I say with a grain of salt since I am a humble novice-priest who's been in hiding for a while!

Gassho, Tokan (satlah)

[Jundo]

Hi all

Although this area of the forum is open to larger debate, reading through this discussion this morning, it strikes me that there is quite an argumentative tone to some of the comments. We can all hypothesise about what the nature of reality and chance or determination is and how it influences the universe from superclusters to quarks, but our manner of discussing these topics should be in a friendly way, seeking to expand understanding, and be interesting for those reading and not contributing.

Hmmm. I am actually okay with a bit of ruff and tumble here, Tokan, because I have requested good intellectual challenges to what I proposed. I did not think that Matt was out of bounds.

We should stay civil, and we do not challenge the person, distracting from the central debate with personal attacks (ad hominem), but it is fine to go hard against ideas.

I still disagree with many of Matt's points, but I have no trouble with his raising them.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Tokan]

Hmmm. I am actually okay with a bit of ruff and tumble here, Tokan, because I have requested good intellectual challenges to what I proposed. I did not think that Matt was out of bounds.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Hi Jundo

I do recall that you were okay with being challenged quite a bit on the Future Buddha work you have been doing, but the comments I have highlighted below are what I was referring to, it just read to me like the debate had become a little more personal, but that's just me...



Gassho, Tokan (satlah)


You sound like somebody preaching a dream within a dream. Setting up a situation and a book where people argue themselves out of existence. What kind of Zen master has doubt that the dream-state is the state of bodhi?

At this scale and from Jundo's limited point of view it would appear that only certain things which fit within his prior conditioning can occur (or can be observed by him).

Again, you being stuck in boring cause and effect thinking is fine as long as it doesn't hurt you or anyone else.

You are like someone in ancient centuries who does not want to believe in DNA simply because the mechanism was then not yet discovered. You think that people and roses and dogs and cats appear because of random chance.

You really do remind me of someone who thinks that the rabbit just appeared in the magicians hat simply because they do not know about the trick of the hidden compartment.

[Matt Johnson]

Hi Tokan! really this is all Ryumon's fault. He literally started it (the thread that is). I had assumed this was a continuation of Jundo's hunches section which he literally invited people to shoot his ideas down. So what do you think? Is the universe a place of random chance, probability and chaos or is it one of intelligence, design and direction?

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

You sound like somebody preaching a dream within a dream. Setting up a situation and a book where people argue themselves out of existence. What kind of Zen master has doubt that the dream-state is the state of bodhi?

At this scale and from Jundo's limited point of view it would appear that only certain things which fit within his prior conditioning can occur (or can be observed by him).

Again, you being stuck in boring cause and effect thinking is fine as long as it doesn't hurt you or anyone else.

You are like someone in ancient centuries who does not want to believe in DNA simply because the mechanism was then not yet discovered. You think that people and roses and dogs and cats appear because of random chance.

You really do remind me of someone who thinks that the rabbit just appeared in the magicians hat simply because they do not know about the trick of the hidden compartment.

Perhaps caution is required in how things are phrased, but I think that the debate is focusing on the ideas being challenged, and is not personal. Perhaps we need to be more careful in how it is phrased to make sure that the idea is being challenged, not the person's integrity. Calling a proposition narrow or ill-informed is fine and proper challenge, calling someone "foolish" should be avoided. It is better to phrase it, for example, "Your idea reminds me of the people in ancient centuries who did not want to believe in DNA ... "

Matt's challenges have been helpful to refine the ideas in my book. I believe that many of his ideas are misguided, but they have been helpful.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Tokan]

Perhaps caution is required in how things are phrased, but I think that the debate is focusing on the ideas being challenged, and is not personal. Perhaps we need to be more careful in how it is phrased to make sure that the idea is being challenged, not the person's integrity. Calling a proposition narrow or ill-informed is fine and proper challenge, calling someone "foolish" should be avoided. It is better to phrase it, for example, "Your idea reminds me of the people in ancient centuries who did not want to believe in DNA ... "

Matt's challenges have been helpful to refine the ideas in my book. I believe that many of his ideas are misguided, but they have been helpful.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Thank you Roshi

Tokan

[Tokan]

Hi Tokan! really this is all Ryumon's fault. He literally started it (the thread that is). I had assumed this was a continuation of Jundo's hunches section which he literally invited people to shoot his ideas down. So what do you think? Is the universe a place of random chance, probability and chaos or is it one of intelligence, design and direction?

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

Hi Matt

Yes, I agree, Jundo sort of set the Future Buddha as an aside from the rest of the sangha threads so that people could shoot his ideas down, or challenge them at least, but I much prefer the idea of clarifying what each other understands rather than making it about what that person believes per se. Well since you ask about what I think....

Isn't our understanding these days, of how matter and antimatter operates in quantum laws, where two opposing principles can be both present and both absent simultaneously, or something like that anyway. It seems to me that randomness does indeed exist, but it is random within a certain range of possibilities according to the laws of physics. Even where we relate this to our own bodies and minds, there are infinite possibilities, but much of what we are and think exists within a specific set of possibilities. I do not personally believe in determinism but whether a God or just 'how things have unfolded', the universe does indeed appear to develop along 'intelligent' lines. Of course, what is good and bad is simply a matter of preference, even while we strive for the good. A star exploding and consuming its surrounding planets might seem disastrous if it wipes out all known life, but in the great cosmic dance of the ebb and flow of life (and death), it is simply a matter of the universe being impermanent and subject to conditions. We do not want the sun to expand and consume us (one day) but it is not inherently bad if it does, possibly not deliberately designed to occur, but quite likely inevitable if the parts of the universe follow some basic rules that allow for seemingly random events, such as a star reaching a critical threshold for expansion which appears random to an observer, but has arisen unexpectedly because of fluctuations that have that random appearance, but cannot truly be random because the constituent parts can only behave or interact in certain ways. Man I'm getting far off reservation for me, I hope no particle physicists are reading this!

To me, Karma is a similar issue. We experience conditions in our life based on how we interact with the world, so I understand Karma in this way. If I am aggressive towards others no doubt I will end up being beaten up in a fight. This isn't determinist, it is a consequence of natural laws, but then again it could be deterministic, if my Karma from a previous life predisposes me to be aggressive. I am a 'one trip on earth' person, so I see things more in terms of cause and effect, of action and consequence, but I do not 'know.' What I do know is that through my Zen practice I see the wonder of the universe, the intricacy of the people and world around me, and how we can see the moon in a drop of water on a blade of grass, and know the peace of practice where all boundaries and explanations fall away.

Thanks again, gassho, Tokan (satlah)

(Better get back to my day job, nursing notes to write!)