If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
Here are the differences in my book from the scenario in the video.
It is, of course, completely possible that you and I are just lucky coin flip winners, Ryumon. Somebody might survive 13.8 billion years of coin flips (far beyond the puny scene in the video of a mere 1000 coin flips ... ... which is not even the 10,000 coin flips that happened in only the minute before the chance encounter where your parents first met for the first time on a crowded subway platform, jostled together by the crowd, because your dad was late for work due to the rain and a traffic jam caused by a shorted wire in a traffic signal that delayed his crossing the street) ... ... in which span of billions of years (not just mere minutes) from the Big Bang to your birth, each molecule, meteor, mammal, meander, meal, murder, microbe, mother and mating which had to be "just so were we to be so" happened just so as lucky coin flips (most intricately multi-sided coins, however, not just "heads/tails"). I cannot deny it. Could be luck. **
Yes, any event, thing or being that happens was once incredibly unlikely if we imagine all the events which led to it.
HOWEVER, when the unlikely being is the imaginer themself ... AND FURTHER ... when that imaginer turns out to be not just "any old actual or potential imaginer" but YOU, yourself, the reader of these words, Ryumon, imagining events at the current end of chance's chain which somehow has left you subjectively able to do the imagining about yourself personally and first hand right now ... I believe that it is a special event demanding special explanation, a bit like finding a diamond in one's hand with no memory about how it got there (yet suspecting that there must be some back story to how it got there and it is not just chance that does not require special explanation.) Yes, of course, someone is bound to have a diamond in their hands, and by chance, diamonds might fall into hands while someone is not aware ... but is there not likely something more to the explanation?
Of course, there will always be skeptics who will reject my arguments, insisting that we "just got incredibly lucky" with no need to look for some as yet unknown special explanation, that "stuff happens" and we are just some of those bits of stuff. They are most likely wrong (as likely wrong as our births were unlikely). The odds of the "it is just chance" folks being right is inverse to the unlikelihood of our births ... the likelihood that I am right parallels the unlikelihood of our births. Therefore, I am most likely right while folks who believe it "just 13.8 billion years of coin flips" are that likely to be wrong.
** (And if you think there is no need to suspect something is afoot, please come over to my house tonight with cash for a friendly game of poker, I will bring the cards.)
Gassho, J
stlah
PS - Matt, yes, you posted the long version of what Ryumon posted.
Or, at least, I feel you likely posted it, Matt. Maybe it has just appeared on our forum by chance attached to your name without your having done anything, because after all, stuff happens. It could be just the chance outcome of a series of coin flips, a chance electrical firing on our computer server that just looks like a post by you but is not.
PPS - In the video, he is talking about misplaced feelings of clairvoyance, e.g., I think of my sister, phone rings, it is my sister on the line. He is right there. It is not exactly on the same theme as my book. Sometimes loaded dice really are loaded dice, sometimes the fix is in and it is not merely imagination.
Remember this lesson ... sometimes cheaters really do cheat ...
There is also a problem when one get obsessed with things "deserving of special explanation" ...
Oh, one can do both at once.
Allow life to be what it is, coming from no where, going no where ... just what is.
One can also ask how the heck we popped up in the middle of time and space despite all that it took.
One can do both at once.
In "Beautiful Mind," a man imagined connections that were not there, among disparate events. They existed in his own mind alone. There was no conspiracy except between his own ears.
In the case of my book, the universe manifested with particles and forces friendly to life, a planet appeared around a sun in a relationship friendly to life, an atmosphere and other processes began on the planet friendly to life, then biology, evolution, body and brain structure began and fully developed in the specific ways we have required, then every event of evolution, world history and our personal familial/genetic histories worked out for us to be here. Those are not imagined, but rather, are hard scientific and historical facts ... well established ... that headed in our direction through billions of years. Look in the mirror, you will see it true.
Allow life to be what it is, coming from no where, going no where ... just what is.
One can also ask how the heck we popped up in the middle of time and space despite all that took.
One can do both at once.
In "Beautiful Mind," a man imagined connections that were not there, among disparate events. They existed in his own mind alone. There was no conspiracy except between his own ears
I would argue that there is nothing different between your and John Nash's mind except how you feel about the connections. Some people feel that imagining the universe has intelligence is a total delusion. The thing is that particular delusion may make you content and balanced and at ease in your life.
Originally posted by Jundo
In the case of my book, the universe manifested with particles and forces friendly to life, a planet appeared around a sun in a relationship friendly to life, an atmosphere and other processes began on the planet friendly to life, then biology, evolution, body and brain structure began in the specific ways we have required, then every event of evolution, world history and our personal familial/genetic histories worked out for us to be here. Those are not imagined, but rather, are hard scientific and historical facts ... well established ... that headed in our direction through billions of years. Look in the mirror, you will see it true.
"friendly universe!?" anthropomorphic much. Anyway convincing you that you are delusional is about as easy as it was to convince John Nash. Ultimately he had to make observations and come to his own conclusions. Noticing the pain it was causing the people he loved was the tipping point. If your delusions help make you and the people around you content who cares whats real.
I would argue that there is nothing different between your and John Nash's mind except how you feel about the connections. Some people feel that imagining the universe has intelligence is a total delusion. The thing is that particular delusion may make you content and balanced and at ease in your life.
Oh no. Let me give you a few examples for contrast, and as examples of what may require special explanation or not.
1-Man wins the lottery 3 times in a row (rare, maybe worthy of a news story, but it happens) vs. man walks into Las Vegas casino and wins 500 poker hands in a row (the management of the casino will be looking for a "special explanation" in the back room.)
2-Big Hurricane hits Florida 3x this year (it happens, luck of the weather) vs. huge hurricanes hit Florida again and again (I would consider the "special explanation" of climate change)
3-You get three "wrong number" phone calls today by different people (could be just chance) vs. you get 500 "wrong number" phone calls today (I would look for "special explanation" such as having your number mislisted for a pizza place or being harassed by someone such as a co-worker.)
4-Whale washes up on beach (could be just chance) vs. hundreds of whales washing up on beach again and again (I would consider a "special explanation" such as navy sonar testing or ear infections.)
Also, John Nash's explanation for each of the foregoing ...
1-Man in Las Vegas may have some trick or device strapped to their leg to provide inside information (possible) vs. Man is psychic and has ESP power to see through cards (Nash)
2-Hurricane rate and size is due to warming oceans (possible) vs. hurricanes are due to angry sea god Poseidon (Nash)
3-Wrong numbers are due to mislisting or harassment by an angry co-worker (possible) vs. they are due to a Russian conspiracy to harass the person for being a spy (Nash ... and assuming the person is actually not a spy! )
4-Whale death due to infection (possible) vs. whale death due to being shot by secret CIA program to kill whales (Nash)
So, in this world, we have cause to look for "special explanations" in some unusual cases, but the explanations should themselves be reasonable and backed by actual possibility and natural laws (even if we are not yet sure of what the actual causes might be).
So, not all beliefs are the same. It is the difference between ships disappearing over the horizon because the Earth is round vs. them falling off of a flat earth.
"Life friendly" does not mean that the universe is in all ways how we personally might wish (I would eliminate wars, childhood cancers, car accidents and such if I were in charge), nor does it mean that it is only about human beings (because every cockroach, blade of grass, space alien on another world or belch has like claim to being the product of conditions in this universe being as necessary for their existing and the product of the chain of historical events which led to their happening).
"Life friendly" or "Matt friendly" merely refers to the fact that this universe is equipped with the special set of conditions (as opposed to their absence as we can imagine) necessary for life in general, Matt's conception and birth in particular, and that the chain of particular historical events, physical and chemical reactions, twists and turns of history and the like necessary to Matt worked out precisely in the way necessary to Matt (as proven by Matt looking in the mirror as the product of all that was required for that.) The cockroach and space alien can also make such claim and, in fact, in this connected universe we all exist (by Buddhist teachings) because of each other. Let them also write their own books about it.
It is only fascinating when we imagine all the seemingly far more likely scenarios where there should have been no Matt at all but for one breeze or falling leaf timed differently.
You remind me of the fellows in Matrix who cannot tell reality from simulation until they swallow the red pill. You seem like a blue pill kinda fellow. You remind me of the folks who know the Earth is flat, and the stars are hanging from a dome in the sky, because they can see it with their own eyes.
Oh no. Let me give you a few examples for contrast, and as examples of what may require special explanation or not.
1-Man wins lottery 3 times in a row (rare, maybe worthy of a news story, but it happens) vs. man walks into Las Vegas casino and wins 500 poker hands in a row (the management of the casino will be looking for a "special explanation" in the back room.)
A kid is born into an extremely rich family. kid doesn't really how rich he is until he compares his situation to other people. as he compares himself to other people. He realises that his situation is relatively rare. two thoughts occur to him... how It was just dumb luck and how he must be humble about it because it could have happened to anybody else or how special he must be to have obviously deserved this great situation.
Originally posted by Jundo
2-Big Hurricane hits Florida 3x this year (it happens, luck of the weather) vs. huge hurricanes hit Florida again and again (I would consider the "special explanation" of climate change)
This was obviously caused by the Democrats! No special explanation required.
Originally posted by Jundo
3-You get three "wrong number" phone calls today by different people (could be just chance) vs. you get 500 "wrong number" phone calls today (I would look for "special explanation" such as having your number mislisted for a pizza place or being harassed by someone such as a co-worker.)
Sure, if it's annoying which I feel that would be. It doesn't have to be a particularly special explanation in that situation... I mean a simple explanation like I give my phone number to the wrong website and now I get spam calls... happens all the time.
Originally posted by Jundo
4-Whale washes up on beach (could be just chance) vs. hundreds of whales washing up on beach again and again (I would consider a "special explanation" such as navy sonar testing or ear infections.)
Yes, what this is revealing to me is the same human pattern recognition that results in scientific pursuit is the same pattern recognition that can produce psychosis. It is also the same pattern recognition that lets us see predators on the grassland or food in the forest.
In the absence of the solid belief in a completely objectively real world scientific pursuit and psychosis would be two sides of the same coin, with no external standard to distinguish them apart from consensus or individual belief.
It often surprises me that it was the right wing of American politics, which brought to the fore the core concept of postmodernism... It was like they all of a sudden discovered it ... and the media just called it post-truth....
No, I am more of a no pill guy....... to be honest I have no idea what colours what...I can never remember... reality building is a group thing... some people find it easier than others to maintain their own personal view despite the consensus... sure they look crazy but as long as they're not hurting anyone what's the problem with freeing the mind to interpret reality as it wishes...
In the absence of the solid belief in a completely objectively real world scientific pursuit and psychosis would be two sides of the same coin
Alas, if you think so, maybe you truly need to get your head examined. Although life has aspects of being a dream, it is not all imagined. Not every crazy thing is true. Rabbits are born from rabbits ... this is true and verifiable ... but my dream of a horned rabbit jackalope is just a delusion.
You may be right about the "democrats" or the "wrong website" ... but those would be "special explanations" too (i.e., some identifiable cause for the unusual phenomenon beyond mere chance.) Spam calls happen all the time, but Matt's popping up in the middle of time and space does not.
Many things have causes beyond chance ... toast is made when heat is applied in a toaster after a button is pushed ... a sculpture appears when an artist applies a chisel to stone ... oak trees grow because an acorn landed in nutritious soil ... not just because of "random chance" because "stuff happens." The place where the acorn fell may be chance, but the fact of an oak tree arising from an acorn is not.
... So you cannot discount the very real possibility that, although the process is not yet well understood (like all scientific notions until they are better understood) that ... like toast, the sculpture, the oak tree ... there is a cause which shortened the odds for Matt's appearance in the middle of time and space.
You strike me as someone who is trying to argue that toast appears without toasters, that Michelangelo sculptures appear when the wind wears away stone (could happen, just very very unlikely), that oak trees appear from naked ground.
Alas, if you think so, maybe you truly need to get your head examined. Although life has aspects of being a dream, it is not all imagined. Not every crazy thing is true. Rabbits are born from rabbits ... this is true and verifiable ... but my dream of a horned rabbit jackalope is just a delusion.
You may be right about the "democrats" or the "wrong website" ... but those would be "special explanations" too (i.e., some identifiable cause for the unusual phenomenon beyond mere chance.) Spam calls happen all the time, but Matt's popping up in the middle of time and space does not.
they are just explanations. nothing special about them... that is what we do. identify patterns in the wilderness... identify patterns in the randomness in the chaos.... but sometimes firewood is firewood and ash ash...
Originally posted by Jundo
Many things have causes beyond chance ... toast is made when heat is applied in a toaster after a button is pushed ... a sculpture appears when an artist applies a chisel to stone ... oak trees grow because an acorn landed in nutritious soil ... not just because of "random chance" because "stuff happens." The place where the acorn fell may be chance, but the fact of an oak tree arising from an acorn is not.
... So you cannot discount the very real possibility that, although the process is not yet well understood (like all scientific notions until they are better understood) that ... like toast, the sculpture, the oak tree ... there is a cause which shortened the odds for Matt's appearance in the middle of time and space.
You strike me as someone who is trying to argue that toast appears without toasters, that Michelangelo sculptures appear when the wind wears away stone (could happen, just very very unlikely), that oak trees appear from naked ground.
You sound like somebody preaching a dream within a dream. Setting up a situation and a book where people argue themselves out of existence. What kind of Zen master has doubt that the dream-state is the state of bodhi?—for it does not fall under the jurisdiction of doubt. And who could affirm it?—for it is not subject to affirmation. Because this supreme state of bodhi is just the supreme state of bodhi, we call the dream-state the dream-state.
they are just explanations. nothing special about them... that is what we do. identify patterns in the wilderness... identify patterns in the randomness in the chaos.... but sometimes firewood is firewood and ash ash...
Yet firewood becomes ash because there was a fire.
Sometimes fires are chance events, a sudden bolt of lightning, a dropped match. Sometimes fires have unusual causes that indicate that the fire was not a chance event. You need to open your mind to the possibility (just consider the possibility, remaining agnostic on the question is fine) that the "Matt" fire was not necessarily only a chance event.
You sound like somebody preaching a dream within a dream. Setting up a situation and a book where people argue themselves out of existence. What kind of Zen master has doubt that the dream-state is the state of bodhi?—for it does not fall under the jurisdiction of doubt. And who could affirm it?—for it is not subject to affirmation. Because this supreme state of bodhi is just the supreme state of bodhi, we call the dream-state the dream-state.
Huh? You misunderstand Dogen here, very plainly. As Dogen reminded us with regard to the Fox Koan, do not ignore or deny Cause & Effect, that we each bear our own Karmic stream. Do you know that Eiheiji, Dogen's temple, has burned down or been damaged many times? Do we say that it was "just chance," or do we sometime look for factors that expedited the fire?
For much of Japanese history, buildings were made of wood and built relatively close together, and fire was a significant threat for many communities. Eiheiji Temple itself has burned down, either partially or completely, several times throughout its history. The most recent disaster occurred in 1879, but prior to that, every century since the temple’s founding was marked by at least one major fire. Eiheiji Temple is surrounded by mountains on three sides, and any fires that start in the temple complex can easily spread down the valley into the neighborhood. In order to protect the community from future catastrophes, the monks distribute fire-warding paper charms to each household at the start of each year.
Do you know that Mahayana Buddhism and Zen are replete with similar arguments? It is true.
Yet firewood becomes ash because there was a fire.
Sometimes fires are chance events, a sudden bolt of lightning, a dropped match. Sometimes fires has unusual causes that indicate that the fire was not a chance event. You need to open your mind to the possibility (just consider the possibility, remaining agnostic on the question is fine) that the "Matt" fire was not necessarily only a chance event.
Sure but to whats ends? I'm not denying cause and effect. In the realm of relative there is cause and effect. In emptiness that cause and effect is concluded or has never begun.
Originally posted by Jundo
Huh? You misunderstand Dogen here, very plainly. As Dogen reminded us with regard to the Fox Koan, do not ignore or deny Cause & Effect, that we each bear our own Karmic stream. Do you know that Eiheiji, Dogen's temple, has burned down or been damaged many times? Do we say that it was "just chance," or do we sometime look for factors that expedited the fire?
[ In order to protect the community from future catastrophes, the monks distribute fire-warding paper charms to each household at the start of each year.[/I]
Preaching a dream within a dream is not a denial of cause and effect. It means great intimacy with cause and effect. Rather than constantly reacting to ones karma, one is conscious of the karma one creates moment by moment in every state.
This can just keep going round and round. So I'm going to try to put out this particular fire. You have brought to my attention my desire to reread Muchu-Setsumu and Dai Shugyo.
Sure but to whats ends? I'm not denying cause and effect. In the realm of relative there is cause and effect. In emptiness that cause and effect is concluded or has never begun.
For Dogen and many other Mahayana folks, both true at once without conflict, two faces of a no sided coin.
Really, there is little to debate about my thesis, and it is as simple as it appears:
You look in the mirror and can subjectively confirm that you are alive in the middle of time and space, requiring (according to our present conceptions of how this universe works) that every single event and phenomenon of physics, chemistry, solar and planetary development, biology and evolution, human history and your personal family history necessary to your conception and birth worked out as needed to have allowed your conception and birth (traditional theories of Karma imply much the same) despite the fact that, imagining back to any one point having such an event or phenomenon in universal history, it appears highly unlikely and unnecessary that things would have 100% gone just that way at each point which was a crossroads through 13.8 billion years ... yet they did. So, you have won every lottery in every such moment for 13.8 billion years in which your life was the prize. It could be just incredible (to say the least) luck, or some "fix" might be in (a special explanation) to weight or determine the outcome.
If you think that what happened to lead to your birth and conception is not special and not deserving special explanation (a mechanism or process which may have shortened the odds for your conception and birth) then you do not think so. If you do, then you do.
It could be chance but it is as unlikely to be chance as the event (your birth) was unlikely, and conversely, as likely to have a "cheat" inversely to the radical unlikeliness of the event.
I just say that anyone who does not think that there may have been a "cheat" should come over to my house tonight for a friendly game of poker. You bring the cash, I will bring the cards. Your loss will be purely by chance.
There is really nothing to debate about it. There is either such a mechanism or not. If there is such a mechanism which made your birth less than a random event which was only the chance product of physics, biology and history, then the only discussion would be about what such a mechanism might be. There are several possibilities.
Comment