[FutureBuddha (Hunches IV)] Still Yet Even Further Hunches

[Jundo]

By the way, if you don’t use that term in your book, I will be very disappointed :-)

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat Lah

Well, if you were to be the only reader of the book (which, perhaps, you will be) then I will use it.

Right now I am writing about the carbon cycle and how fortunate we are not to have ended up like Mars or Venus. I am almost done with that, and then move into the origin of life on Earth and natural selection part.

[Matt Johnson]

People can convince themselves that they feel all manner of things.

I doubt that you can produce any verifiable (not anecdotal) evidence of any of this, However, as you said, you feel that you do not need to, so good for you.

In fact, we have 1000s of nerve endings in each square inch of skin. We are always feeling their tingling and stimulation, but the brain blocks out most of it. However, if I name any part of the body which you do not usually focus on (e.g., right elbow or back of the neck or small of the back) you can suddenly feel the nerves that are there being lightly stimulated, plus muscle tension. This is not "energy moving" through the body. You cannot heal others by projecting energy from your body to theirs. Maybe there is some psychological benefit if they think it is happening, but that is all. You cannot "see inside your body" without an Xray etc. Many people have attempted to test for and prove such abilities, and they have never been shown in reputable studies. Case in point:

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/health-pseudoscience/should-we-take-reiki-seriously

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

PS - In bed last night, I convinced myself that I felt the cat sleeping on my leg. Felt her jump on and lie down. When I looked, there was no cat. Maybe it was our deceased cat? I don't think so, but just a dreamlike imagining by me. True story.

So how much drug testing data do you want me to lay down here? We have put our faith in more spurious things based on this type of testing and the only thing we've learnt is the placebo effect is probably the best drug out there. So many of our drugs are not much better than a sugar pill.

Just try making a double-blind trial for acupuncture. It's not easy to fake stick somebody with a needle. Although I suppose it might be a little like a sharp ghost cat jumping on your leg, or maybe Phantom leg pain. The subtle body in yoga is merely an aspect of interiorception which is an observable phenomena through fMRI. Now whether it does. anything good for you is the question that maybe a problem to prove if this type of work takes decades to observe. It's not called the subtle body for nothing.

And yes it is energy... E=mc2 baby... same reason most of Japan has electricity at the moment. And although it is intriguing to wonder whether we can project our body onto someone else something simpler like helping them pay attention to a particular area of their body is observable in fMRI (I have a stack of research papers which I used in order to get the traditional Chinese medicine school I went studied at to be granted The protected title of acupuncturist and traditional Chinese medicine doctor). Do I think there's an enormous amount of Quackery in acupuncture and TCM... absolutely... but learning how to induce a placebo effect is not just the domain of Zen teachers and Gurus. White coats help....

Anyway, I think you're just being provocative and I think at different times you probably had an open mind about this stuff.


_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

So how much drug testing data do you want me to lay down here? We have put our faith in more spurious things based on this type of testing and the only thing we've learnt is the placebo effect is probably the best drug out there. So many of our drugs are not much better than a sugar pill.

Just try making a double-blind trial for acupuncture. It's not easy to fake stick somebody with a needle. Although I suppose it might be a little like a sharp ghost cat jumping on your leg, or maybe Phantom leg pain. The subtle body in yoga is merely an aspect of interiorception which is an observable phenomena through fMRI. Now whether it does. anything good for you is the question that maybe a problem to prove if this type of work takes decades to observe. It's not called the subtle body for nothing.

And yes it is energy... E=mc2 baby... same reason most of Japan has electricity at the moment. And although it is intriguing to wonder whether we can project our body onto someone else something simpler like helping them pay attention to a particular area of their body is observable in fMRI (I have a stack of research papers which I used in order to get the traditional Chinese medicine school I went to to be granted The protected title of acupuncturist and traditional Chinese medicine doctor). Do I think there's an enormous amount of Quackery in acupuncture and TCM... absolutely...

Anyway, I think you're just being provocative and I think at different times you probably had an open mind about this stuff.

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

Yes, for placebo effects. No, I do not believe that there is a "subtle body." Energy is not something that can be manipulated at a distance for "healing." I am not being provocative. I just do not t believe in quackery, pseudo-science and extreme religious silliness.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Jundo]

Let me add that there is some evidence that acupuncture may work, both by placebo effect and by simply stimulating or numbing the nerves in a particular place ...

... but it does not work for the reasons traditionally claimed, nor does it provide all the benefits of the treatment traditionally claimed.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Matt Johnson]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer%27s_paradox

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat Lah

Yes Ryumon, its the reason why most scientific research can barely be trusted. And why given an infinite amount of money to run an infinite amount of tests can allow us to pretty much prove (or disprove anything). Ultimately that's where many of these experiments end up... inconclusive because the money ran out. So in terms of these theories and drugs, it's survival of the richest.

in terms of the Observer Paradox, Reflexivity in qualitative research is when researchers know they effect the situation or people they watching, but instead of seeing this as a problem, they can see it as a chance. By being open about how they change things, researchers can look at how their own actions and beliefs shape the info they get. This lets them understand the social stuff better, and it also makes the observer part of the research, without ruining the results.

In quantum mechanics, where the observer effect happens too, the solution is often about decoherence. This says that even though the observer can change things in quantum systems, you can still get good, reliable results because of how quantum states work with probabilities. So, the observer paradox is there, but it doesn’t mess up the bigger picture when you look at it overall.

In both cases, the paradox isn’t a big problem, it’s just something to include in how you do research.

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Matt Johnson]

Yes, for placebo effects. No, I do not believe that there is a "subtle body." Energy is not something that can be manipulated at a distance for "healing." I am not being provocative. I just do not t believe in quackery, pseudo-science and extreme religious silliness.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

You're making claims without evidence. here's a little experiment you can do yourself. put your attention in your anus for 4 hours if you have that level of attention... now tell me, do you feel more relaxed? Do the same to your hand. is it warmer... possibly more blood going to the area? has the temperature increased? is temperature energy? is matter energy?.. YES... is it subtle and hard to measure? abso ****nglutely.

(what is the energy of the average red blood cell) The amount of energy contained in one red blood cell, according to Einstein's equation , is approximately 8100 joules.)


_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Matt Johnson]

Actually, I think most of the problem is most of people who are interested in and open to and have a vested interest in complimentary and alternative medicine have the focus and attention of a monkey.

Because of that they have never actually observed and experimented with the things that they believe in.

If they did, they wouldn't have a mere conceptual understanding of woo woo energy... they would actually have a direct experience of it. Aikido (and Jundo your wife should appreciate this) and all martial arts uses a refinement of attention for the efficient use of energy... There is nothing strange here. it's just physics.... and this physics can be used to explain complimentary and alternative medicine rather than the other way around...

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

Sorry Matt. It is this attitude which explains a lot that is wrong with the world right now.

... its the reason why most scientific research can barely be trusted. And why given an infinite amount of money to run an infinite amount of tests can allow us to pretty much prove (or disprove anything). Ultimately that's where many of these experiments end up... inconclusive because the money ran out. So in terms of these theories and drugs, it's survival of the richest.

And ...

put your attention in your anus for 4 hours if you have that level of attention... now tell me, do you feel more relaxed?

Oh, I am 100% convinced that will be relaxing.

Why does the hand feel warmer when you place attention on it? Much of that is psychological, some may be a very mild change in the autonomic nervous system by relaxing and focusing. There is some possibility, through breath techniques, to change autonomic balance, bring about hyperventilation and the like which can change metabolism. The Tummo meditators may be able to do so, although some of the research on that skill has been criticized as faulty in methodology.

My wife is a 5th Dan Blackbelt in Aikido, and she does not believe in most of the "woo woo" claims surrounding it.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Matt Johnson]

Sorry Matt. It is this attitude which explains a lot that is wrong with the world right now.



And ...



Oh, I am 100% convinced that will be relaxing.

Why does the hand feel warmer when you place attention on it? Much of that is psychological, some may be a very mild change in the autonomic nervous system by relaxing and focusing. There is some possibility, through breath techniques, to change autonomic balance, bring about hyperventilation and the like which can change metabolism. The Tummo meditators may be able to do so, although some of the research on that skill has been criticized as faulty in methodology.

My wife is a 5th Dan Blackbelt in Aikido, and she does not believe in most of the "woo woo" claims surrounding it.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Yeah I think we understand each other... again its just words... and a lack of appreciation for the ordinary...

_/\_
Sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

I have not looked at Wim Hof for awhile, but I think this summarizes what reputable experts say, if I recall ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6EPuUdIC1E

Gassho, J
stlah

[Matt Johnson]

I have not look at Wim Hof for awhile, but I think this summarizes what reputable experts say, if I recall ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6EPuUdIC1E

Yup great video. Few things:

1. in compassionate terms of making therapies that will be accessible to average overweight Joe with emphysema. This is unhelpful. There is no way Joe is going to become a yogi in this lifetime. He might be convinced to take a cold bath though... but it's really hard to convince fibromyalgia patients that the solution to their problem might be torture...

2. Yes we are way too comfortable. and I only had to fast during Ramadan once to realise why my Muslim friends were so happy despite the crap they had to put up with.

3. we now have very good solid scientific evidence for the benefits of asceticism also known as hormesis. So all the time I was squirming and getting angry that Zen teachers were forcing me (strongly suggesting and conditioning me) to sit still in the cold, in the heat, with mosquitoes, and in very uncomfortable situations has a very good, scientific basis....

4. I think what you mean about not believing quackery and woo woo silliness is exactly right. If you literally think it's quackery and woo woo silliness then you have kind of indicated your position on the subject. but if what you claim can be backed up even in a subtle to inconclusive way by science and observation, even if it's an outlandish claim, it's worth studying even if the main method of study is subjective and anecdotal.

5. I don't think that Zen teachers should dissuade their students from side quests into yogic knowledge. Yes it's not the ultimate aim but I think we have finally got to a point where we can start to measure some of the more subtle things that yogis and hardcore meditators have been saying for centuries. I actually think the time is right to interest people in doing some of these extreme things in order to open people's minds and read science back into ancient yogic texts to see what else can be practised and tested. I am particularly interested (and somewhat horrified) in what's coming with the use of ai in decoding brain activity, particularly visual/auditory brain activity indicating the possibility of being able to see what people are dreaming... (This is literally around the corner... did you write about this jundo I can't remember)

edit post facto: I just wanted to include this as it gave me the chills... related to the last thing I just said in this post:

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/canada-neural-privacy-1.7346520

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Ryumon]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/01/wim-hof-biopic-on-hold-after-claims-of-domestic-abuse-against-cold-water-guru

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat Lah

[Matt Johnson]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...old-water-guru

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat Lah

Brightest lights, darkest shadows

#dontgetfamous

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

4. I think what you mean about not believing quackery and woo woo silliness is exactly right. If you literally think it's quackery and woo woo silliness then you have kind of indicated your position on the subject. but if what you claim can be backed up even in a subtle to inconclusive way by science and observation, even if it's an outlandish claim, it's worth studying even if the main method of study is subjective and anecdotal.

I am open to anything ... ANYTHING ... even Big Foot and the Loch Ness Monster ... if the same can be shown to exist with reputable, repeatable, verifiable evidence.

For example, on accupuncture, I use to write it off completely. Now good arguments are made, such as by this doctor, although the reasons it works are not so much the traditional reasons (more placebo and perhaps endorphin release than "meridians") and more limited than traditional claims (putting a needle in your foot will not fix your liver issues, although it might help a bit with arthritis pain for the foregoing reasons.) I watched this video awhile back, and the doctor makes a case for it. Also, unless I am misreading his charts, he is being a bit optimistic in interpreting what they say (e.g., at 8:45 mark) by saying that the accupuncture has more effect than the faked accupuncture, although it looks to my eyes like the results are all over the place.

https://youtu.be/UhT2x_Ijwe8?si=TF_D_H0yuEmT7WGJ

5. I don't think that Zen teachers should dissuade their students from side quests into yogic knowledge. Yes it's not the ultimate aim but I think we have finally got to a point where we can start to measure some of the more subtle things that yogis and hardcore meditators have been saying for centuries. I actually think the time is right to interest people in doing some of these extreme things in order to open people's minds and read science back into ancient yogic texts to see what else can be practised and tested.

Oh, I am all for people engaging in healthful and beneficial practices, old or new.

I am also for getting all the relgious woo woo and flim-flam, romantic and exaggerated claims, magical nonsense, hocus-pocus and quack medical claims out of Buddhism.

I think that there is a heck of a lot of the latter, although I try to keep an open mind looking for the former.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Matt Johnson]

Let me add that there is some evidence that acupuncture may work, both by placebo effect and by simply stimulating or numbing the nerves in a particular place ...

... but it does not work for the reasons traditionally claimed, nor does it provide all the benefits of the treatment traditionally claimed.

Gassho, J
stlah

So I was trying to get the doctors of Nova Scotia to support TCM schools bid for the protected tital of acupuncturist. I found many many articles which supported the efficacy of acupuncture both in general in terms of pain control and immune modulation. And even a few that took a look at the specificity of certain acupuncture points. and basically like most of these things, there's stuff that surprises the scientists and probably disappoints the acupuncturists and that's probably the best that can be hoped for.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3480944/

however, my hunch is that the intimacy that one can develop with their own body with regards to healing is very different from the minimal types of intervention you can achieve with needles in other people's bodies. I did get acupunctured by a venerated Master (Biggest freaking needle I have ever seen) once and it was very intense and crazy what he could do, but definitely related to the nerves not some other mechanism. From my perspective, the way a Meridian acts and feels subjectively is very important for healing. And I think the way the Chinese probably thought about it was that a meridian is to the mind. what a nerve is to the body. But how it felt subjectively and looked objectively were different yet related. And then they used many centuries of mindfulness and cause and effect to try to map it out in a general way. but that's kind of the problem is it's general... The Indians did the same thing with Aryuveda and yoga.

Now I say all this and yet I will likely never go for acupuncture again, because Learning how to use your attention in your body accomplishes the same thing (for free) without having to stick anything in anything. When you acupuncture, you are literally nailing down the patient's attention in various points. Essentially it yokes their attention to the body and prevents them from getting lost in thought. (they often do that anyway if they are really messed up, but It keeps them more anchored than they would be otherwise).

It's like doing people's meditation for them... and frankly it's disempowering and develops dependency...

anyway, I'm sorry I took this thread on a magic carpet ride.

_/\_
sat/ah
matt