[FutureBuddha (8)] Life Extension ... and when enough is enough ...

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 41193

    [FutureBuddha (8)] Life Extension ... and when enough is enough ...

    This doctor is taking an unusual personal stance ...

    Why a leading cancer doctor says he won't get chemo after 75

    ... Emanuel wrote that he would refuse all medical interventions—including antibiotics and vaccinations—after he turned 75 years old, saying he believes older Americans live too long in a deteriorating state.

    "Doubtless, death is a loss," he wrote. "But here is a simple truth that many of us seem to resist: living too long is also a loss. It renders many of us if not disabled then faltering and declining, a state that may not be worse than death but is nonetheless deprived . . . We are no longer remembered as vibrant and engaged but as feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic."

    Emanuel clarified in the article that he would not end his life at 75, but rather that he would stop taking efforts to prolong his life.

    An argument that society and families—and you—will be better off if nature takes its course swiftly and promptly

    A recent interview with the doctor, now closer to 75 but sticking with his plan ...


    In the future, it is possible ... even likely ... that life will be further extended, to 100, 150 or longer. But in what condition? And what about the effects on society?

    Should Zen folks learn to say "this is enough life, I do not need more," an Oryoki meal of life?

    What would you do, for yourself or your loved ones? (Sadly, many or most of us must already face the choice of when to turn off the life extending machines and treatments for someone we love, given where technology already is today.)

    From my book ...

    ~~~~~

    In an age in which we will be able to choose physical beauty, height, intelligence, gender, and more by buying the desired DNA, both for ourselves and our unborn children, many of us may decide instead to reject all medical interventions, take the cards we are dealt. To the wise, accepting things as they are, without craving change, is freedom. And while our research to conquer diseases, and extend the quantity of years in our lives, is seemingly a good thing on the surface, quantity is not what is most important. Sometimes ‘less can be more,’ even in lifespan.

    For several years, my wife and I were volunteers at a hospice for the terminally ill. We were companions to people in their final days, and aids to their families, offering support and comfort where we could. We heard many life stories. I witnessed older people who had lived a long life, yet seemed to have been miserable and self-destructive during much of it. Many kept true to form at the end. I met others, even the young, who seemed peaceful and accepting of the process of dying whatever their age. Many had been so even earlier in life. Perhaps we can learn to have the best of all ways of living and dying: peaceful, wise and accepting of our lives all through our years, peaceful, wise and accepting of our dying when dying (plus, as a bonus, a few extra decades gifted us by science which we can savor too.)

    A medical ethicist, Leon Kass, has argued that living longer can come at a price, while mortality may be something we should welcome. He argues that longer is not necessarily more pleasant, as mere focus on quantity can leave us shallow and frivolous, like immortal Greek Gods with too much time on their hands. Kass argues that finding meaning in life requires that life contain a certain fragility. He asserts that the appreciation of natural beauty requires awareness of its transience, and falling in love would be less poignant without loss and heartbreak at death. I do not disagree. He is right, but I believe that we can keep life meaningful too, even if a bit longer.

    + Kass L. L’Chaim and its limits: why not immortality? First Things May 2001; Life, liberty and the Defense of Dignity. Encounter Books, 2002; and Ageless Bodies, Happy Souls. The New Atlantis 1 (Spring 2003)

    Zen masters teach that profound meaning is realized in how one lives this moment, without too much thought to before and after. Likewise, appreciation of natural beauty includes its transience, like Japanese cherry blossoms which last but a few days, or seasons that change at their own rhythm. However, the seasons will still change even with a few more of them, and relationships will come and go, even if not by death. Time is always passing like a river, no matter its total length. Thus, even with our extended lifespans, there will yet be ephemerality and heartbreak enough … and with more time for more of it. I may not want the ‘84,000 years of life’ that the Buddha Maitreya promises, but I would not mind 184 years in decent health. I would not want my last century to be spent trapped in bed, tubes everywhere, doped to the gills or in pain.*

    * (Personal note to my children: If I am ever in such a state, pull the plug. I am fine with it. Of course, if I am unaware of my plight, emersed in some virtual simulation that lets me be young again with those I love, like you kids, that is a different story. In such case, please keep me plugged in so long as we can financially afford.)

    ...

    ... There are many legitimate concerns in cloning, organ harvesting, and self-benefitting life extension that lengthen our lives, but prevent others from ever being born as the trade-off (If we opt for doubled life spans, are we depriving life to someone never born?), or which is so expensive that it is only available to the rich, diverting resources and funding from other more pressing needs of the people.

    Yes, rather than seeking to live for 150 or 500 years, some will consciously choose not to do so, even should it be technologically feasible. Instead, we could vow merely to live gracefully, in peace and simplicity, for the natural lifespans that we are given. I don’t suggest that any of us refuse all medicines and not avail ourselves of modern technology at all (as I said, some folks of more radical views, like many Jehovah’s Witnesses today, may choose such a course, and that is their right). However, there is room for reason and balance in available options. Is it not better to live a life of 50 or 100 years with satisfaction, surrounded by love, goodness and beauty, than a life of centuries filled with discontent, conflict, hate, greed and ugliness? Were I to face such a stark choice, I would choose the shorter yet more lovely road.

    But then, what about a life of centuries filled with satisfaction, surrounded by love, goodness and beauty?

    Some people may choose to accept and embrace their cancer and heart disease, infections and fevers, their own and their children’s deaths despite there being cures available. It will be their right and choice (so long, of course, as their choice does not endanger others, unlike the many people who refuse vaccines in our world today, endangering others. It is acceptable, I suppose, if in their fear of science, they elect to place themselves in danger, but they should not place others in greater danger by doing so. Nor should parents harm their children by being foolish.)

    It is possible that many of the hearing or visually impaired, the wheelchair bound, and the like will refuse artificial ears or eyes or robotized legs (as some today refuse cochlear implants) because they are so appreciative of their life and body as it is, and do not wish to be any other way. They are to be honored for their wisdom, and their choice respected.

    The right of assisted suicide and graceful exit should be allowed, even today, to the terminally ill and those in great pain. In the future, some folks, although perfectly healthy, possessing what the wider society calls healthy bodies and a reasonably good mental state, may decide that enough is enough anyway, and choose to end things. The law might allow such otherwise healthy persons the right, at any time or after 100 or 150 years or so, to elect suicide for no other reason than to give someone else a chance at life (assuming, for example, that maximum population quotas are in place on our “homeostatic” world), or just because the person feels that their time is now done.

    Even if we live to 200 or 2000 years, I do not think that real immortality will ever be in the cards. We will still be struck down someday by something (hit by a runaway robot bus, some future virus that outsmarts our best doctors, or in a transporter accident traveling to Mars), or this whole quadrant of the galaxy might fall into a black hole. The Buddha taught that, deep within, we are timeless, but he never said that we would live for eternity. As with our meals, what is truly important in lifespan is healthiness and quality, not sheer length and quantity. Perhaps we can have a little more time, while learning to be less shallow and frivolous with the time we have.

    Gassho, J

    stlah
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-31-2023, 04:50 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Koriki
    Member
    • Apr 2022
    • 308

    #2
    Thank you for the thoughtful essay Jundo. Timely, as I have a close relative in her late 70's who is having cancer surgey next week. The choice of chemo may become real. In her case, she is physically active and quite healthy otherwise, so extending her life with that treatment would make sense. I know she would like more time. Time to see grandkids grow. Wanting more does seem to be our nature and is probably one of the delusions we need to face.
    That being said, we do only get the one life. And, looking at the universe as a whole does make that seem kind of rare and maybe something worth holding on to. It took me 13 billion years to manifest this way and I think I'd like to hold onto this life for a while longer.
    Although I didn't spend the 7:10 to listen to the good doctor (I'm busy with trees to look at and such), from your quote it would appear that he has his own delusions to face. There are many here who would point out that a life with much less ability is still a life very much worth living. Sorry to run long.

    Gassho,

    Kō (Mark)
    s@

    Comment

    • Rich
      Member
      • Apr 2009
      • 2616

      #3
      I’m 75 and dr emanuel makes sense to me. I can’t say that I would never take chemo but I’ve had that idea in my head for many years. Since I’m relatively healthy I haven’t had to face such decisions yet. I have declined invasive testing. I do take 2 medications but am slowly reducing dosage. Also rethinking covid vaccine. Maybe a booster every few years like I’ve done with the flu vaccine. Whether i live to 76 or 106 , I won’t be surprised.

      Sat/lah


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      _/_
      Rich
      MUHYO
      無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

      https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 41193

        #4
        Originally posted by Rich
        I’m 75 and dr emanuel makes sense to me. I can’t say that I would never take chemo but I’ve had that idea in my head for many years. Since I’m relatively healthy I haven’t had to face such decisions yet. I have declined invasive testing. I do take 2 medications but am slowly reducing dosage. Also rethinking covid vaccine. Maybe a booster every few years like I’ve done with the flu vaccine. Whether i live to 76 or 106 , I won’t be surprised.

        Sat/lah
        Your biggest risk is getting hit in the head with a hockey puck!

        Gassho, J

        stlah
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

        Comment

        • Rich
          Member
          • Apr 2009
          • 2616

          #5
          Definitely high risk behavior lol [emoji38] [emoji970][emoji1624]


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
          _/_
          Rich
          MUHYO
          無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

          https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

          Comment

          • Seiko
            Novice Priest-in-Training
            • Jul 2020
            • 1176

            #6
            Originally posted by Jundo
            This doctor is taking an unusual personal stance
            Perhaps not so unusual. 12-ish years ago I had a mystery illness and I had tests every week for 13 months. The doctors couldn't pinpoint a diagnosis. I said that if it was cancer I would decline treatment. I was then in my early 50s. It turned out to be ME (Myalgic Encephalomyelitis).

            There is certainly a balance to be reached between length of life and quality of life.

            Gasshō
            Seiko
            stlah
            Last edited by Seiko; 03-06-2023, 01:00 AM.
            Gandō Seiko
            頑道清光
            (Stubborn Way of Pure Light)

            My street name is 'Al'.

            Any words I write here are merely the thoughts of an apprentice priest, just my opinions, that's all.

            Comment

            • Tokan
              Member
              • Oct 2016
              • 1305

              #7
              Hey all

              I wouldn't say no to 150 years of good health and vitality, might be able to keep up with all the forums threads then! The downside might be 100 year mortgages

              I agree that simply extending our lives adds no value, it is what we do with that time that adds value. Having worked in a hospice I too have seen how some prefer to measure their lives by the numbers, and others by the story, I prefer the full short version over the long empty version (not shunyata by the way, I mean the other 'emptiness'). I still feel like there is much I can offer, and at 51 I feel that I could easily do another 51 and still have work to do in the world. The hospice also teaches you that you shouldn't wait until your last days to reflect on life and death and those reflects now, can help us to repurpose our life now, to a better end. At the end of the day it is all time and we still need to balance the relative and the absolute aspects of our being-time.

              Just a footnote, life expectancy is a such a moveable feast. When I was in Afghanistan the life expectancy was about 35-40, and that didn't even have anything to do with war! It was the 'technology' we have at our disposal now that changed that to 45-50 in just a few years (midwifes, antibiotics, vaccines - the real basic stuff of medicine).

              Gassho, Tokan

              satlah
              平道 島看 Heidou Tokan (Balanced Way Island Nurse)
              I enjoy learning from everyone, I simply hope to be a friend along the way

              Comment

              • Jundo
                Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                • Apr 2006
                • 41193

                #8
                Originally posted by Tokan
                Hey all

                I wouldn't say no to 150 years of good health and vitality, might be able to keep up with all the forums threads then! The downside might be 100 year mortgages
                100 year mortgages have existed in Japan for many years. They are multi-generational, with the obligation attached to the property itself, whoever owns it. As far as I know, no original borrower has yet to pay one off ... yet.



                Gassho, J

                atlah
                ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                Comment

                • Tokan
                  Member
                  • Oct 2016
                  • 1305

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Jundo
                  100 year mortgages have existed in Japan for many years. They are multi-generational, with the obligation attached to the property itself, whoever owns it. As far as I know, no original borrower has yet to pay one off ... yet.



                  Gassho, J

                  atlah
                  May you be the first!

                  Gassho, Tokan

                  satlah
                  平道 島看 Heidou Tokan (Balanced Way Island Nurse)
                  I enjoy learning from everyone, I simply hope to be a friend along the way

                  Comment

                  • Jundo
                    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                    • Apr 2006
                    • 41193

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Tokan
                    May you be the first!

                    Gassho, Tokan

                    satlah
                    It's the interest rates that will kill ya!

                    Gassho, J

                    stlah
                    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                    Comment

                    • Ankai
                      Novice Priest-in-Training
                      • Nov 2007
                      • 1065

                      #11
                      This subject is near and dear to me given my medical state. As long as it's still my life, I'll live, find ways to be useful and enjoy it. But should I be home incapacitated to the extent of "trapped in my own body," the choice of what to do ought to be nobody's but my own. Life is a lot more than just the continuation of biological function. When I can't participate in it any more, it'll be time to go.

                      Sat today
                      Gassho!
                      護道 安海


                      -Godo Ankai

                      I'm still just starting to learn. I'm not a teacher. Please don't take anything I say too seriously. I already take myself too seriously!

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