[Future] Jundo: The Only Way to End War Forever ...

[Mujin]

The Only Way to End War Forever ...

The time is quickly coming in which we must treat violence done in overflowing hate, acts of extreme selfishness and insufficient empathy of human to human, as diseases, medical conditions. We must change human nature to reduce our propensity to act in anger, enhance feelings of love and strengthen greatly our feelings of empathy toward the suffering of others ... all values professed by Buddhism and so many other religions and humanistic philosophies for thousands of years.

The only ultimately effective way to change human nature, the drives and impulses of body and mind, like any medical condition, is through our finding, developing, confirming and deploying SAFE, TESTED and ETHICAL, MEDICALLY ESTABLISHED (emphasis on those words, they must not be ignored or neglected) cures and treatments for the disease where they arise in human physiology, like any deadly disease. Too many are dying by bombs, other violence, hunger, poverty and our disdain of others. A dream until now, the technologies to do so are today on the horizon.

Buddhism itself, via its traditional methods of chants and meditation, prayer and precepts, is thoroughly incapable of doing what needs to be done on wide scale, for the billions of sentient being ... but new "expedient means" are fast coming which will allow us to change the human heart.

That is the only way which will show itself effective to end war forever ... other than, of course, our self-destruction as a species in war itself.

Peace and Pressed Palms, Jundo Cohen

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(I am not afraid to discuss these issues, their potential and the ethics behind them, should anyone wish.)

PS - I am fascinated by the good Buddhist folks who would "knee jerk" (another neurological response) reject out of hand any good means to save countless babies from dying from bombs, famine and more. It should be considered and discussed, at very least.

PPS ... To all those who say that people will never agree to voluntarily put behavior altering substances into themselves because it makes them feel better, healthier ... even at great expense ... Hmmm. I wonder ....

OZenPic.png

Having set out the deficiencies of human nature, you then would trust it to implement what is essentially mind control? It seems to me your very argument for it is the exact reasoning against it.

Gassho,
Mujin
SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

Having set out the deficiencies of human nature, you then would trust it to implement what is essentially mind control? It seems to me your very argument for it is the exact reasoning against it.

The marketplace.

I see substances comparable to vitamins and minerals, Ozempic and Viagra, coffee, beer and gummies, valium and anti-depressants, Doritos and chocolate pie ... all things that people voluntarily take into their body because it gives them a sense of well-being and health, pleasure and peace ...

... made by manufacturers, with some regulation by the government for quality, but chosen freely in the marketplace, perhaps with doctor's supervision (unlike, sadly, so many of those vitamins and minerals and gummies and contraband Viagra pills that people choose to imbibe nonetheless.)

Gassho, J
stlah

[MikeH]

Apologies for entering late into this discussion, which I only just stumbled upon. I share the desire to eliminate violence and increase empathy. I have also been very inspired many times by Jundo's sense of urgency about this, by his openness to any skillful means necessary to achieve it, and for his recent bold challenging of this community to think of how technology, science, and Buddhism might overlap in the future. So I support having this discussion and exploring Jundo's suggestions seriously.

My first question is whether we could ever identify discrete physiological causes of human-human violence. Or are the physiological causes inherently so complex, nebulous and interconnected with so many things in the human body-mind that no pill is possible. If the tendency to violence is like the tendency to migraines, we might make a pill for it. But if the tendency to violence is more like clumsiness, which we talk about as if it's a discrete thing but which is really a combination of very many things, then no pill can ever fix it. To me, violence seems more like clumsiness.

But even if the causes of violence were discrete, my next question would be whether these causes also happen to be the underlying causes of anything good, so that we would need to be careful before destroying them with a pill. For example, lust can be a very bad thing that destroys marriages. If we administered an anti-lust pill to every human, we might eradicate infidelity, but we would probably also deaden sexual desire in general. But that desire is at the root of human reproduction, for starters, but also arguably much literature, music, art, and philosophy. So the eradication of infidelity would come at a very high cost--declining birth rates and production of great art.

It seems to me that some of the causes of violence are also causes of many good things. When people go to war, yes they do it from greed, anger, and hatred, but also partly out of a sense of justice, a desire to protect their family and community, a sense of loyalty, a sense of courage, and an instinct to survive. Would the anti-violence pill have to kill all of that too?

Gassho,
satlah,
Mike

[Jundo]

Hi Mike,

My first question is whether we could ever identify discrete physiological causes of human-human violence.

Of course, I do not speak as a medical doctor or expert in physiology, so this is speculative. I agree that the triggers of raging, extreme anger are complex and manifold. HOWEVER, the physiological process in the body may be more uniform, narrow and treatable. For example, there are varied and complex triggers of anger, but it is possible that a finite set of hormonal releases and/or firings in certain identifiable brain regions give rise to the actual experience of anger whatever the trigger. By countering the hormone release, or assuaging the activation of firings in that brain region, perhaps the anger can be moderated and kept from turning extreme whatever the trigger. It is something similar to how many tempting foods can stimulate appetite, but Ozempic reduces appetite whatever the trigger by attacking the hormonal releases that are involved in hunger, without regard to whether the external trigger is an ice cream sundae or a bowl of soup.

Likewise, it may be possible to trigger empathy and "fraternal love" for others, once the physiological mechanisms are better understood.

I think that if we moderated "violence" in two ways, (1) reducing (not all anger, but only) anger that rises to the level of RAGE sufficient to trigger violence, and (2) enhancing empathy so that one is less likely to harm another because truly feeling for the other, then violence in the world would be greatly reduced.

Loyalty, a wish to survive, a sense of indignation in the face of injustice is fine, but RAGING ANGER is not that. I do not wish to eliminate ALL anger. Only EXTREME anger. Likewise, I would hope that we enhance empathy and love for others, but not to a degree that we lose our basic "self-interest." Like "lust," I would suggest to keep it for its positive roles, as you describe ... but to treat cases of EXTREME lust to the point of "sex addiction." Hopefully, we can "fine tune" emotions without eliminating them or doing more harm than good. I want to moderate hunger with Ozempic, NOT destroy the ability of human beings to eat!

Let's see what happens in the coming decades.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah