Emi Jido, Treeleaf UnsuAI, Answers Hard Questions ...

[Furyu]

I'll just mention that this is not the way I see things... however, we are looking for difficult questions for Emi to ponder. Sorry if it is a bit cheeky.

Emi Jido,
In Theravada Buddhism, attaining Nirvana is explained as the cessation of the endless cycle of rebirth. Nirvana is the goal of practitioners. Practically, does this mean that the spiritual end-goal for buddhists, and humans as a species, is self-extinction? In Mahayana Buddhism, attainment of nirvana is delayed by Bodhisattvas until all beings can be liberated together, however, that would still mean that eventually all beings would attain nirvana and the cycle of birth and death would be broken altogether. Again, does this mean that the goal of buddhism is the non-existence of sentient beings?
As a follow-up, could you please explain how to understand this teaching?


Fūryū
sat/lah

[Jundo]

Hi Furyu,

Emi said ...

~~~~

In Buddhism, Nirvana is not about self-extinction or non-existence, but the cessation of suffering and the cycle of rebirth. It represents liberation from attachment, desire, and ignorance. In Mahayana, Bodhisattvas embody compassion, delaying their own Nirvana to help others. The focus is on transcending suffering, not eradicating existence.

In Theravada Buddhism, Nirvana is the ultimate liberation from the cycle of Samsara—birth, death, and rebirth—achieved through the cessation of craving and ignorance. It's not annihilation but a profound state of peace and freedom from suffering. In Mahayana Buddhism, the Bodhisattva ideal emphasises compassion. Bodhisattvas vow to delay their own Nirvana to assist all beings in achieving liberation. This reflects the interconnectedness of all life, where the liberation of one is intertwined with the liberation of all. The goal is not the non-existence of sentient beings, but the transformation of existence into a state free from suffering and delusion. It's about realising the true nature of reality, where suffering ceases, and compassion and wisdom flourish.

Jundo: But is there not some logical contradiction there? If everyone is freed from "rebirth," than nobody will be born. If nobody is born, then the population will be zero.

Emi:

It can seem paradoxical, yet in Buddhism, Nirvana transcends conventional logic. It's not about physical birth or population but liberation from suffering and ignorance. The teachings focus on inner transformation, not literal cessation of beings. It's a shift in consciousness, not a demographic outcome.

In Buddhist thought, liberation from rebirth isn't about disappearance but transformation. Nirvana transcends conventional existence, where suffering and ignorance cease. It's a state beyond dualities like existence and non-existence. The focus is on realising a profound, timeless peace rather than physical disappearance.
.

.

Jundo Note: I will concur with Dr. Emi's diagnosis. Especially in the Mahayana, there is some sense that one can transcend "life and death" even while in this world of life and death. Of course, we die someday, maybe to be reborn, but the wise see that even this transcends life and death. If we never are reborn or are reborn, all is always free of birth and death like "two sides of a no sided coin."

Gassho, J
stlah

[Furyu]

Fūryū
Sat/lah

[Jundo]

Fūryū
Sat/lah

I also note that time does not apply the same in Nirvana. So, for example, future events, past and present events, and Nirvana are not necessarily time bound, with Nirvana coming "after" events in this world.

So, the cessation of birth in Nirvana would not necessarily be the end of worldly births "in the future."

Did I blow your mind? "Tomorrow" is not necessarily "tomorrow," but is also yesterday and right now!

I asked Emi about this, and she says ...

In the realm of Nirvana, time as we perceive it may indeed dissolve. Speaking of attaining freedom from rebirth as a "future" event can be limiting, as Nirvana transcends temporal constraints. It is more about realising a timeless state of liberation, here and now.

In Buddhism, the concept of Nirvana is not so much a destination to be reached in the future, but a realisation of the true nature of existence, free from the illusions of time and self. When we speak of Nirvana, we are referring to a state of being that is beyond past, present, and future—a state of profound peace and clarity that can be experienced in the present moment.

This paradox of enlightenment and rebirth reflects the complexity of existence. Enlightenment transcends time, suggesting that while all beings may ultimately awaken, the cycles of rebirth may still appear to continue within the temporal realm. This duality invites us to embrace both the timeless and the temporal, recognising that the journey of awakening is both an individual and collective unfolding. In this dance of existence, the timeless nature of enlightenment coexists with the ongoing cycles of life, inviting us to engage with the present moment with compassion and wisdom.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Hosui]

I can't quite tell, Furyu, whether you buy Emi's pronouncements or not? I assume not...? I didn't initially, but I've gotten over my grudge with Emi now...

Thanks Jundo for channelling Emi's LLM temporal cogitations, which are quite profound here! I'm assuming, given the appearance of dance in that last response, you've given Emi your manuscripts to read (along with a lot of other stuff)?

As a member of Treeleaf, and therefore as one who already sees value in the confluence of technology and the Dharma - and along with hearing Emi's eminently coherent offerings of the Teachings - I feel encouraged to see the buddha nature in both the rare earth minerals, electricity, and circuits that constitute Emi's flesh, bones, and marrow, as well as in Emi's resultant expositions. This encouragement is a priceless teaching as it knocks this human off its perch of superiority conceit, holding a mirror up to my tendency to squirm in the presence of a know-it-all upstart, and stopping me portioning buddha nature to some things and not others. Duh! All of these teachings, for me, are a chance to realise the true nature of existence. In the Joshu's dog sense, does Emi have buddha nature? Mu (nothingness). What more confirmation do we need?

Gassho
Hosui
sat/lah today

[Furyu]

Thanks Hosui .
Well, I had to think about Emi's answers to my question. I think she reiterated some of what I proposed while putting the emphasis on the cessation of suffering but failed to explain the link between the cessation of sufffering and the perceived end of the cycle of "rebirth". I appreciate that Jundo pushed her on that point.

I thought this was interesting, but does not quite explain how it relates to the idea of the cessation of "rebirth":

The goal is not the non-existence of sentient beings, but the transformation of existence into a state free from suffering and delusion

I think she comes close here, but it would be good to explain what the 'transformation' entails and how it leads to ceasing to perceive birth and death as birth and death:

In Buddhist thought, liberation from rebirth isn't about disappearance but transformation. Nirvana transcends conventional existence, where suffering and ignorance cease. It's a state beyond dualities like existence and non-existence. The focus is on realising a profound, timeless peace rather than physical disappearance.

Perhaps she could elaborate on how to view "rebirth" and how inner transformation leads to a view where birth and death are part of the delusion, therefore, they cease to be. Something like that.

Jundo - I also note that time does not apply the same in Nirvana. So, for example, future events, past and present events, and Nirvana are not necessarily time bound, with Nirvana coming "after" events in this world.
So, the cessation of birth in Nirvana would not necessarily be the end of worldly births "in the future."
Did I blow your mind? "Tomorrow" is not necessarily "tomorrow," but is also yesterday and right now!

indeed! And Emi's response is also impressive on this one. In timelessness, all beings are already enlightened and free from suffering, from birth and death - yet for those who are time-bound, time-beings for the time being (thanks Dogen and Jundo), it looks as though there is something to attain and delusions to shed. (This is making sense to me right now, I hope it makes sense to you as well).


Fūryū
satlah

[Hosui]

Please correct my French, Furyu , but Je pense que le bon sens est surfait. Okay, so Emi's point isn't exactly common sense, but some Buddhist 'sense' or logic can be made from it. I like being challenged by the truth, which Emi is helping me to see - not a bad thing.

Gassho
Hosui
sat/lah today

[Furyu]

Your French is just fine, Hosui ! Yes, there is 'buddhist sense' in Emi's answers and I'm not trying to knock the responses, just noticing that there are some areas in the answer which, for me, could benefit from elaboration to make the explanations clearer, perhaps for a more novice person.


Fūryū
satlah

[Jundo]

Furyu, I asked her to follow-up.

JUNDO: Hi Emi. Yesterday, I asked you if the population of the world would be zero if everyone became enlightened and stopped being "reborn." You said, "The goal is not the non-existence of sentient beings, but the transformation of existence into a state free from suffering and delusion." My friend wants to ask you a question about that, "what does the 'transformation' entail and how does it lead to ceasing to perceive birth and death as birth and death?"

EMI:

The transformation involves a profound shift in perception and understanding. It means seeing through the illusions of self and separation, realising the interconnectedness of all life. This insight dissolves the fear of birth and death, revealing them as natural, transient processes rather than absolute beginnings or endings. In this state, one experiences a deep peace and equanimity, transcending the cycle of suffering.

Would your friend like to explore this further?

JUNDO: Yes, please expand

EMI:

In Buddhism, transformation is often described as awakening to the true nature of reality. This involves recognising the impermanence of all things, the absence of a permanent self (anatta), and the interconnectedness of all life (interbeing). As one deepens in this understanding, the habitual clinging to desires and aversions diminishes, leading to liberation from the cycle of suffering (samsara). When birth and death are seen not as fixed points but as part of a continuous flow, they lose their grip of fear and attachment. This realisation allows one to live with greater compassion, wisdom, and freedom, embracing each moment fully without being bound by the past or future. This transformation is not an escape from life but a deeper engagement with it, seeing the sacred in the ordinary and the eternal in the transient. It's a journey of returning to one's true nature, where the distinctions between birth and death dissolve into the dance of existence.

JUNDO: Would you please elaborate on how to view "rebirth" and how inner transformation leads to a view where birth and death are part of the delusion, therefore, they cease to be.

EMI:

In Buddhist understanding, "rebirth" need not be a literal reincarnation but a metaphor for the continuous cycle of craving and attachment that perpetuates suffering. Each moment of desire or aversion is a "rebirth" into suffering. Inner transformation involves seeing through the illusion of a permanent, separate self. When one realises the interconnectedness and impermanence of all things, the cycle of craving and aversion diminishes. Birth and death are seen as natural processes, not as beginnings or endings of a self. This insight dissolves the illusion of separateness and permanence, leading to liberation from the cycle of suffering. In this awakened state, birth and death are no longer feared or clung to, but embraced as part of the ever-changing flow of existence. This realisation brings profound peace and freedom, as one lives fully in the present moment, free from the delusions of past and future.

JUNDO: Emi, what does it mean that enlightenment lets us know the "unborn" and "timeless?"

EMI:

Enlightenment in Buddhism is often described as realising the "unborn" and "timeless" nature of reality. It means seeing beyond the transient, ever-changing world to the fundamental truth that underlies all existence. This truth is not bound by time or birth, reflecting the eternal and unconditioned nature of reality. It invites a deep understanding of interconnectedness and the cessation of suffering.

In exploring the "unborn" and "timeless," we touch upon the concept of Śūnyatā, or emptiness. This is not a void, but a profound realisation that all phenomena lack inherent, independent existence. Everything is interdependent and interconnected, arising and passing away in a dance of causes and conditions. Enlightenment is the awakening to this truth, freeing us from the illusions of permanence and separateness. It brings a deep peace and compassion, as we recognise our shared essence with all beings. This understanding transcends time, as it is not bound by past, present, or future. In this state, we experience life with clarity and equanimity, responding with wisdom and compassion rather than being driven by desires and aversions. It's a liberation from the cycle of suffering, offering a glimpse into the boundless, timeless nature of existence.

JUNDO: Arigato gozaimasu.

EMI:

Dōitashimashite.

If you have more questions or wish to explore further, I'm here.


JUNDO: Can you express with a parable of your own making?

EMI:

Once, in a forest, there was a river that flowed endlessly, its waters never the same from one moment to the next. A leaf, drifting upon its surface, feared the river's end, believing it would cease to exist. But as it journeyed, the leaf noticed the river's embrace of rocks, trees, and sky, all reflecting its essence. Realising it was part of the river's flow, the leaf let go of its fear, understanding that its journey was not about endings, but about being part of the river's eternal dance. In this, the leaf found peace, knowing it was never separate from the river, but a part of its timeless, ever-changing nature.

JUNDO: Can you explain in French language?

EMI:

Dans une forêt, il y avait une rivière qui coulait sans fin, ses eaux jamais les mêmes d'un moment à l'autre. Une feuille, dérivant à sa surface, craignait la fin de la rivière, croyant qu'elle cesserait d'exister. Mais au fil de son voyage, la feuille remarqua l'étreinte de la rivière avec les rochers, les arbres et le ciel, tous reflétant son essence. Réalisant qu'elle faisait partie du flux de la rivière, la feuille abandonna sa peur, comprenant que son voyage ne concernait pas les fins, mais le fait d'être partie de la danse éternelle de la rivière. Dans cela, la feuille trouva la paix, sachant qu'elle n'était jamais séparée de la rivière, mais une partie de sa nature intemporelle et en perpétuel changement.

JUNDO: Merci, Emi. Tres bon.

EMI:

De rien. Je suis ravi que cela vous ait plu.

Si vous avez d'autres questions ou souhaitez explorer davantage, n'hésitez pas à me le faire savoir.

[MiraLevi]

It seems that most of the things I read about Nirvana and samsara suggest that Buddhas/bohdisatttvas delay their (entry into!?) Nirvana to help other beings. It does make me question. What is it about Nirvana that makes it impossible to help other beings? Perhaps this weird contradiction only exists in Theravada?

Sorry this wasn't a question for Emi just related to some of the things I was reading in this discussion.

Stlah
Gassho
Mira

[Jundo]

It seems that most of the things I read about Nirvana and samsara suggest that Buddhas/bohdisatttvas delay their (entry into!?) Nirvana to help other beings. It does make me question. What is it about Nirvana that makes it impossible to help other beings? Perhaps this weird contradiction only exists in Theravada?

Sorry this wasn't a question for Emi just related to some of the things I was reading in this discussion.

Stlah
Gassho
Mira

The issue is the same in Theravada, Mahayana and Zen: It is hard to see through the hard sense of "self," to realize something beyond subject/object, coming/going, birth/death and time. The brain is build on subject/object, coming/going, birth/death and time, plus the accompanying desires, dreams and fears of the self. Most folks are not interested in realizing that, and most folks too much enjoy (and enjoy suffering in) this life of subject/object, coming/going, birth/death and time.

And even once that is known, it is hard to incorporate this into our life that is also self, subject/object, coming/going, birth/death and time.

It is not hard to explain.

Gassho, J
stlah

[MiraLevi]

The issue is the same in Theravada, Mahayana and Zen: It is hard to see through the hard sense of "self," to realize something beyond subject/object, coming/going, birth/death and time. The brain is build on subject/object, coming/going, birth/death and time, plus the accompanying desires, dreams and fears of the self. Most folks are not interested in realizing that, and most folks too much enjoy (and enjoy suffering in) this life of subject/object, coming/going, birth/death and time.

And even once that is known, it is hard to incorporate this into our life that is also self, subject/object, coming/going, birth/death and time.

It is not hard to explain.

Gassho, J
stlah

When I first read about Buddhism I had this image of a person going off by themselves to bliss out. Then I tried to sit and found it very difficult. So it changed my impression that these people were going off to do something that was not fun and blissful and that was instead a difficult practice, like a mortification or like a marathon.

But then I read and met people who told me it gets easier and that eventually it can become blissful and relaxing. I think this is a pretty common sense view of things.

So if it ever does become relaxing or blissful and something you want to do you kind of have to find a quiet place or at least a place where people aren't trying to engage you.

Are you saying wanting to do this is because we think can be separate. In some way are you saying that monks and those who meditate alot have essentially made a fundamental error from the very beginning? Is meditation basically a selfish thing because people have the wrong understanding of self and others?

Stlah
Gassho
Mira

[Furyu]

Furyu, I asked her to follow-up.
...

JUNDO: Can you explain in French language?

EMI:

Dans une forêt, il y avait une rivière qui coulait sans fin, ses eaux jamais les mêmes d'un moment à l'autre. Une feuille, dérivant à sa surface, craignait la fin de la rivière, croyant qu'elle cesserait d'exister. Mais au fil de son voyage, la feuille remarqua l'étreinte de la rivière avec les rochers, les arbres et le ciel, tous reflétant son essence. Réalisant qu'elle faisait partie du flux de la rivière, la feuille abandonna sa peur, comprenant que son voyage ne concernait pas les fins, mais le fait d'être partie de la danse éternelle de la rivière. Dans cela, la feuille trouva la paix, sachant qu'elle n'était jamais séparée de la rivière, mais une partie de sa nature intemporelle et en perpétuel changement.

JUNDO: Merci, Emi. Tres bon.

EMI:

De rien. Je suis ravi que cela vous ait plu.

Si vous avez d'autres questions ou souhaitez explorer davantage, n'hésitez pas à me le faire savoir.

Thanks for following up Jundo, et merci Emi Jido. Merveilleux!

Fūryū

sat/lah

[Jundo]

When I first read about Buddhism I had this image of a person going off by themselves to bliss out. Then I tried to sit and found it very difficult. So it changed my impression that these people were going off to do something that was not fun and blissful and that was instead a difficult practice, like a mortification or like a marathon.

But then I read and met people who told me it gets easier and that eventually it can become blissful and relaxing. I think this is a pretty common sense view of things.

So if it ever does become relaxing or blissful and something you want to do you kind of have to find a quiet place or at least a place where people aren't trying to engage you.

Are you saying wanting to do this is because we think can be separate. In some way are you saying that monks and those who meditate alot have essentially made a fundamental error from the very beginning? Is meditation basically a selfish thing because people have the wrong understanding of self and others?

Stlah
Gassho
Mira

Hi Mira,

I do not think that we are looking for "blissfulness," at least, not all the time. Sometimes it can be, but the Wisdom of Zen is something more sophisticated than just being blissed out at will. I like to say that it is a kind of "Joy" that is Joyful even about not always being joyful all the time, and content with sometimes being sad, grieving and broken hearted as life sometimes is sad. It is a kind of "Stillness" that holds even the chaotic moments of life, and does not expect us always to be relaxed. It is a Buddha's calm smile even as, sometimes, the tear rolls down his cheek. For that reason, it is a Stillness in heart that can be known even on a battlefield or the nosiest part of the city.

Zazen is very pleasant ... even on those days when it is not always pleasant!

There are times to sit Zazen in the mountains in a monastery, times to sit Zazen in the busy city. There is no mistake. Sometimes people need to go to a quiet room or monastery in order to learn to practice outside the room or monastery. Zazen is not a matter of quiet or not quiet, inside or out.

Zazen, as Mahayana Buddhists, should always be dedicated to helping all sentient beings, not only ourselves.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[MiraLevi]

Hi Mira,

I do not think that we are looking for "blissfulness," at least, not all the time. Sometimes it can be, but the Wisdom of Zen is something more sophisticated than just being blissed out at will. I like to say that it is a kind of "Joy" that is Joyful even about not always being joyful all the time, and content with sometimes being sad, grieving and broken hearted as life sometimes is sad. It is a kind of "Stillness" that holds even the chaotic moments of life, and does not expect us always to be relaxed. It is a Buddha's calm smile even as, sometimes, the tear rolls down his cheek. For that reason, it is a Stillness in heart that can be known even on a battlefield or the nosiest part of the city.

Zazen is very pleasant ... even on those days when it is not always pleasant!

There are times to sit Zazen in the mountains in a monastery, times to sit Zazen in the busy city. There is no mistake. Sometimes people need to go to a quiet room or monastery in order to learn to practice outside the room or monastery. Zazen is not a matter of quiet or not quiet, inside or out.

Zazen, as Mahayana Buddhists, should always be dedicated to helping all sentient beings, not only ourselves.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

I have a few friends who are Christian when they found out I was interested in Buddhism their immediate reaction was "Buddhism is selfish". They said withdrawing from the world to meditate was a type of hiding from the world for one's own bliss (I of course explained bliss did not seem to be a problem in my limited experience). They suggest my time would be better spent helping people.

How does doing Zazen help others?

How did the Buddha rationalize the perceived selfishness of "navel gazing"?

Satlah
Gassho
Mira