[FutureBuddha] Dystopia and Zentopia

[Jundo]

I have been watching for some weeks dozens of futuristic SF short films on a very good youtube channel ...

DUST

https://www.youtube.com/@watchdust

.
My point is not to promote this SciFi channel, although many of the stories are interesting. Instead, my intent is to point to a problem, namely, 9.8 out of 10 of these films are dystopian, dark, oppressive, hopeless, enslaved, industrial, militaristic, bleak, polluted ... think Blade Runner and Terminator and Dark City and so many more, and you will catch a whiff.

Sadly, this is the current popular vision of tomorrow.

One of many such stories:
.

But it does not need to be so. There are other ways.

One of our missions here in this Sangha is to present the plentiful positive possibilities for tomorrow, informed by Zen and Buddhist values. It can be a better world.

Please keep an eye out for my next, next book project (after I finish the current one). Working title:

ZENtopia

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

PS - Matt, we lost some data. Would you kindly repost the Yuval Harari interview? Thank you

[Kaitan]

I just watched the movie 'After Yang' and it was beautifully aesthetic and deep, I highly recommend it, it is about AI in a not so Utopian, but far from a dystopian world. I leave the trailer bellow, if anyone is interested. I watched on Apple TV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYIQWua8f40

stlah, Kaitan

[Jundo]

I just watched the movie 'After Yang' and it was beautifully aesthetic and deep, I highly recommend it, it is about AI in a not so Utopian, but far from a dystopian world. I leave the trailer bellow, if anyone is interested. I watched on Apple TV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYIQWua8f40

stlah, Kaitan

Thank you, Kaitan. Yes, lovely, very "human" film.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Hosai]

No doubt anybody who is keeping up on these things knows that this is quite an old (relatively speaking) featurette about the dangers of social credit systems.

This particular featurette is mentioned several times in Yuval Noah Harari's book nexus about the very real dangers and likelihood of increasingly sophisticated and immersive social credit systems.

One of the many things we should be extremely protective against. In fact, I believe Jundo should probably include it in one of his precepts for AI. The EU certainly thinks it's important:

the European Union (EU) has implemented regulations that ban certain uses of artificial intelligence (AI), including social credit systems. The EU's Artificial Intelligence Act (AI Act), which came into force on August 1, 2024, adopts a risk-based approach to AI regulation, categorizing AI applications into different risk levels: unacceptable, high, limited, and minimal.

But it's weird how something that seems like a good idea is actually terrible....

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Hosai]

I have been watching for some weeks dozens of futuristic SF short films on a very good youtube channel ...

DUST



.


Sadly, this is the current popular vision of tomorrow.

One of many

But it does not need to be so. There are other ways.

One of our missions here in this Sangha is to present the plentiful positive possibilities for tomorrow, informed by Zen and Buddhist values. It can be a better world.

Please keep an eye out for my next, next book project (after I finish the current one). Working title:

ZENtopia

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

PS - Matt, we lost some data. Would you kindly repost the Yuval Harari interview? Thank you

different interview. same idea on his book tour.... But I think he says it here better....

You mentioned disagreeing that it was not bad information that was the problem but bad human nature... I actually think if you engaged Harari on this he would would locate a difference in emphasis for him with regard to the problem... in this case, I think he would locate ignorance as the main poison.... and I don't think you can really deal with greed and anger unless you know that those things are bad and how they manifest in your life....

Yuval would also probably agree with you that telling the right story is extremely important going forward... It's stories that allow us to do anything...

But cautionary tales have their place... as do hopeful, inspiring stories... Too many cautionary tales can make one depressed and unable to do anything... But saccharine hopeful stories that no one really believes deep down or that contradict the reality on the ground are also equally useless...

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

First, I think that Dr. Harari is a little overblown as a scholar, and has become a bit of a meme, a fashion trend of people reading his popular books that are filled sometimes with entertaining and thought provoking, but overdrawn or lightweight theories. His ideas are worthy of discussion, and certainly provocative, but in some ways, he should have stayed with medieval military history as his specialty.

Second, I believe that changes to human nature are key to changing human behavior, not mere changes in human information changing human behavior. It is very clear that people choose "truth" based on their inclinations, often as confirmation of what they already feel and believe. People in NAZI Germany did not choose to look away because they received bad information from the NAZIs. Rather, it was a cycle of anger, economic fear and accompanying emotions fed by information on scapegoats and easy conspiratorial explanation for the troubles of the world that was provided by the NAZIS and catered to those emotions and fears, a mutual feedback loop of anger and resentment.

If one makes three changes in human nature then the equivalent of the Holocaust, the witch trials of Salem and like examples raised by Mr. Harari would be much less likely to occur. The changes go beyond anyone's personal beliefs. For example, if one reduces the ability of people to rage at levels of anger at which they might commit acts of violence, and if one increases human empathy so that even strangers are felt about much as one's own mother or siblings, then it becomes much more highly unlikely that one could cause pain or death to a stranger no matter the grounds. There may be exceptions (e.g., would someone subject their own mother or brother to a burning at Salem? Would one send one's own father or sister to a Concentration Camp?) but it certainly will be much more unlikely. Furthermore, if people do feel greater empathy for others, they will tend to choose information in the marketplace of ideas which confirms their new, loving and empathetic feelings and beliefs. It is for this reason that Harari has things a bit backwards. People could disagree very much on key political and social issues ... considering each other ignorant and misguided ... but, so long as they are hesitant to do violence, to rage in anger, and feel great empathy toward their ideological opponents, it is unlikely that the discussions between them will be anything but civil. (The third change I suggestion is moderation of desires to consume.)

Finally, AI may lie, and we cannot trust it. I trust it about reporting facts much more than, for example, the average Joe on Facebook or even some historians of medieval military history.

Gassho, J
stlaj

[Junsho]

FYI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UIYN2fuZYc

Gassho!
SatLah.

[Hosai]

First, I think that Dr. Harari is a little overblown as a scholar, and has become a bit of a meme, of people reading his popular books that are filled sometimes with entertaining and thought provoking, but overdrawn or lightweight theories. His ideas are worthy of discussion, and certainly provocative, but in some ways, he should have stayed with medieval military history as his specialty.

Sure, and I can only hope that the same thing will happen to you one day

History repeats itself which is why many futurists have a good grounding in history. Lest we forget:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/01/hitler-germany-constitution-authoritarianism/681233/

I apologize for the pay wall...

Second, I believe that changes to human nature are key to changing human behavior, not mere changes in human information changing human behavior. It is very clear that people choose "truth" based on their inclinations, often as confirmation of what they already feel and believe. People in NAZI Germany did not choose to look away because they received bad information from the NAZIs. Rather, it was a cycle of anger, economic fear and accompanying emotions fed by information on scapegoats and easy conspiratorial explanation for the troubles of the world that was provided by the NAZIS and catered to those emotions and fears, a mutual feedback loop of anger and resentment.

How far should I go back? hmmmm ok Plato instantly comes to mind: Plato, through Socrates, argued that no one does wrong knowingly—wrongdoing arises from ignorance of the good, as truly understanding the good would compel a person to pursue it.

And yes for the sake of his book he has focused on the topic of information networks and their evolution. Much the same as you focussed on the nexus of scientific progress and the possible role of Buddhism. Most people write books about something....

If one makes three changes in human nature then the equivalent of the Holocaust, the witch trials of Salem and like examples raised by Mr. Harari would be much less likely to occur. The changes go beyond anyone's personal beliefs. For example, if one reduces the ability of people to rage at levels of anger at which they might commit acts of violence, and if one increases human empathy so that even stranger's are felt about much as one's own mother or siblings, then it becomes much more highly unlikely that one could cause pain or death to a stranger no matter the grounds. There may be exceptions (e.g., would someone subject their own mother or brother to a burning at Salem? Would one send one's own father or sister to a Concentration Camp?)

Oh im sure it happened unfortunately....actually Harari talks about this... about neighbour's and family turning eachother over to secret police....

but it certainly will be much more unlikely. Furthermore, if people do feel greater empathy for others, they will tend to choose information in the marketplace of ideas which confirms their new, loving and empathetic feelings and beliefs.

Actually don't write Harari off, he says pretty much the same thing with regards to how algorithms work currently to how they should work... instead of rewarding rage and vitriol and shock....

It is for this reason that Harari has things a bit backwards. People could disagree very much on key political and social issues ... considering each other ignorant and misguided ... but, so long as they are hesitant to do violence, to rage in anger, and feel great empathy toward their ideological opponents, it is unlikely that the discussions between them will be anything but civil. (The third change I suggestion is moderation of desires to consume.)

Yes, but first they need access to the information of what their ideological opponents actually believe which they are not getting with the current algorithms...

Finally, AI may lie, and we cannot trust it. I trust it about reporting facts much more than, for example, the average Joe on Facebook or even some historians of medieval military history.

Green is not a good colour on you Jundo. Honestly, he's worth reading... if only to get accurate information in order to disagree with him better....


_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

To be clear, I have read his books. I just find some of the ideas provocative, but generally overblown and not convincing. It is "pop-intellectualism" for the cocktail party crowd (or whatever has replace cocktail parties these days.) Some good things in the books, many wise ideas ... but also much trivial pap.

Alas, fully understanding "the Good" or "Truth" ... people will disagree on what that even means. Our current day and age is prime example, where we cannot even agree on many aspects of basic knowledge.
.

Oh im sure it happened unfortunately....actually Harari talks about this... about neighbour's and family turning eachother over to secret police....

Yes, but it is rare. And perhaps empathy was lacking within neighborhoods and families. There may have been cases in which someone turned in their own parent or sibling to the Gestapo, but most people would protect their parent or sibling. Much more common during the war were cases where people hid and smuggled out strangers at risk to their own lives, in most cases due to empathy for the plight of the stranger.

My ideas are too simple too. Yet, imagine a world in which violence, assault or murder done in boiling over rage was far less common because people were physiologically not prone to such extremes of anger, where child abuse and other sexual offenses were successfully treated medically to eliminate the propensity in some individuals, where one could no more walk past a homeless stranger on the street than one could walk past one's own child homeless in the street, where Israelis felt toward Palestinians and Palestinians toward Israelis as if looking upon their own children, where people got their "dopamine kicks" from viewing or doing acts of charity, where addictions of all kinds were eliminated, where people were content without so many calories and mall purchases and less likely to get their kicks there ...

.... It would not be a perfect world, but many of our most serious problems would be reduced or eliminated.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Hosai]

Oh sorry so you have read Nexus.... never mind then...

The amount of cautionary sci-fi tales surrounding Utopias I should not go unnoticed by anybody...
films that present utopias—societies designed to be perfect or harmonious at least on the surface. Unlike dystopias these worlds often appear serene advanced or idyllic at first glance. However, as the narrative unfolds, these utopias reveal ethical compromises, hidden oppression, or eerie existential truths. These films explore how striving for perfection can create environments that subtly (or overtly) sacrifice freedom

This is what you describe...

The Truman Show
Gattaca
Logan's Run
Brave New World
Elysium (more dystopian when earth is taken into account)
Demolition Man
The Stepford Wives
Pleasantville
Minority Report
Her
In Time
The Giver
Cloud Atlas
The Lobster
San Junipero (Black Mirror)
Annihilation
The Matrix (of course, but also quite dystopian ultimately)
Equilibrium
The Island
THX 1138

The drive to create utopias often stems from noble aspirationseradicating suffering, achieving equality, or creating peace and prosperity. Aiming for utopia leads to unintended consequences of trying to engineer a perfect society. The cost of utopia is usually autonomy, authenticity, or the acceptance of human limitations. It determines a lot about freedom and what lives are worth living... The Nazis (and the Communists) had a lot to say about Utopia... I'll never forget when I found out that animal welfare was actually a huge deal in Nazi Germany....

The Nazi regime is a prime example of how the pursuit of a so-called "perfect" society can lead to horrific outcomes. Their vision of racial purity and national unity enforced through genocide and forced sterilization, extended even to policies like animal welfare and anti-smoking campaigns...on the surface seemed progressive but were rooted in the same OCD-like obsession with control and purity. These efforts to create order and eliminate "undesirable" elements reveal the dangerous paradox of utopian ambitions: beneath the illusion of progress and harmony lies a brutal system destroys in the name of perfection.

and I don't think I'm going out too far on a limb here to see a connection between This and some people's Zen practise.....

But then again everybody's middle way point is different... What seems ascetic to me may seem lax to you...or vice versa... What seems a slight improvement to our world to you might seem like colonization to me...

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

I am not actually talking about a perfect Utopia. However, we would be rid of, or much less burdened by, several of our most serious social problems.

Sometimes things do work out. I am more of a Star Trek fellow myself.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Hosai]

I am not actually talking about a perfect Utopia. However, we would be rid of, or much less burdened by, several of our most serious social problems.

Sometimes things do work out. I am more of a Star Trek fellow myself.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Yeah I think we could stand to get rid of money like in STNG... Oh wait, that's basically happened in Canada already... now we just use digital information to indicate our worth.... So close to a social credit system when you think about it...

_/\_
m