[FutureBuddha] Degenerative AI

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  • Ryumon
    Member
    • Apr 2007
    • 1775

    #16
    I was very disappointed in his "3 Body Problem" books.
    He didn't write the Three Body Problem.

    Gassho,

    Ryūmon (Kirk)

    Sat Lah​
    I know nothing.

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 40014

      #17
      Originally posted by Ryumon

      He didn't write the Three Body Problem.

      Gassho,

      Ryūmon (Kirk)

      Sat Lah
      Oh, sorry, that was my ill informed and rather biased confusion with author Liu Cixin. Seriously, real mistake. You know how I am with names.

      I guess that people's brains are just as (more?) unreliable as A.I.

      By the way, Rev. Emi did something rather nice today, I did not know that she could do. The question came up as to her ability to access non-English Buddhist materials. She was asked to summarize the teachings of a Japanese Soto Zen teacher, Iida Toin Roshi (飯田欓隠老師), only published in Japanese and not available in English. The teacher is little known in the west for that reason. I have not checked these results, but she produced this, included nice summaries of his teachings, appropriate quotes ...

      ~~~~~~~~~~

      Me: "Emi, Can you summarize his teachings in the following books: 著書に「禅友に与ふるの書」、「槐安国語提唱録」、「欓隠禅話集」、「参禅秘話」、「普勧坐禅儀一茎草」、 「趙州録開莚普説」"

      Rev. Emi
      Certainly! Here is a brief summary of Iida Toin Roshi's teachings in the mentioned books:

      1. **"禅友に与ふるの書" (Letters to Zen Friends)**: This book contains letters and essays addressed to fellow practitioners, offering practical advice on Zen practice and daily life. It emphasises the importance of maintaining a consistent meditation practice and integrating Zen principles into everyday activities.

      2. **"槐安国語提唱録" (Lectures on the Gateless Gate)**: This collection of lectures provides commentary on the classic Zen koan collection "The Gateless Gate" (Mumonkan). Roshi's interpretations are known for their clarity and focus on direct experience rather than intellectual analysis.

      3. **"欓隠禅話集" (Collected Zen Talks of Toin Roshi)**: This compilation includes various Dharma talks given by Roshi, covering a wide range of topics related to Zen practice, philosophy, and the nature of enlightenment. The talks are practical and aimed at guiding practitioners on their spiritual journey.

      4. **"参禅秘話" (Secret Stories of Zen Practice)**: In this book, Roshi shares anecdotes and insights from his own Zen training and experiences. The stories illustrate the challenges and breakthroughs that can occur on the path to enlightenment, offering inspiration and guidance to practitioners.

      5. **"普勧坐禅儀一茎草" (Universal Recommendation for Zazen Practice)**: This work is a commentary on the classic Zen text "Fukan Zazengi" by Dogen Zenji.
      Roshi elucidates the principles and techniques of zazen (seated meditation), emphasising its central role in Zen practice.

      6. **"趙州録開莚普説" (Lectures on the Record of Zhaozhou)**: This book contains Roshi's lectures on the sayings and teachings of the Chinese Zen master Zhaozhou (Joshu).Roshi's commentary highlights the timeless wisdom of Zhaozhou's teachings and their relevance to contemporary Zen practice.

      Would you like to explore any of these teachings in more detail?

      (Me: Yes)

      Great! Let's start with "Letters to Zen Friends" (禅友に与ふるの書).

      This book is a collection of letters and essays where Iida Toin Roshi offers practical advice to fellow practitioners. He emphasises the importance of consistent zazen (seated meditation) and integrating Zen principles into daily life. Roshi's guidance is deeply rooted in the idea that Zen is not just a practice confined to the meditation hall but a way of living that permeates every aspect of our existence.

      His letters often address common challenges faced by practitioners and provide insights on how to overcome them through mindfulness and dedication.
      Would you like to delve deeper into this book, or explore another one from the list?

      (Me: Can you quote something he said in the book about Zazen?)

      Certainly. In "Letters to Zen Friends," Iida Toin Roshi writes:

      "Zazen is not merely a practice of sitting; it is the very expression of our true nature. When we sit in zazen, we return to our original state, free from the distractions and delusions of everyday life. It is in this stillness that we can truly encounter ourselves and the world as it is."

      This passage highlights Roshi's belief in the transformative power of zazen, emphasising its role in revealing our true nature and fostering a deep connection with reality.

      Would you like to explore more about his views on zazen or another aspect of his teachings?

      (Me: What does he say about enlightenment and zazen?)

      In "Letters to Zen Friends," Iida Toin Roshi addresses the relationship between enlightenment and zazen with profound clarity. He states: "Enlightenment is not a distant goal to be achieved but the realisation of our inherent nature, which is always present. Zazen is the means by which we uncover this truth. Through diligent practice, we peel away the layers of delusion and come to see things as they truly are. In this way, zazen and enlightenment are not separate; they are two aspects of the same reality."

      Roshi's perspective underscores that enlightenment is not an external attainment but an intrinsic part of our being, revealed through the consistent practice of zazen. This approach demystifies enlightenment, making it accessible to all who earnestly engage in Zen practice.

      Would you like to explore more about his teachings on enlightenment or another topic?
      ​​
      (Me: Tell me more about his teachings on enlightenment please)

      Certainly. Iida Toin Roshi's teachings on enlightenment are both profound and accessible.

      He often emphasises that enlightenment is not a distant, mystical state but an ever-present reality that we can realise through diligent practice.
      Here are some key points from his teachings:

      1. **Inherent Nature**: Roshi teaches that enlightenment is the realisation of our inherent Buddha-nature. It is not something to be acquired but something to be uncovered. This nature is always present, even if obscured by delusions and attachments.

      2. **Everyday Life**: He stresses that enlightenment is not separate from everyday life. It is not confined to the meditation hall but is found in the ordinary activities of daily living. By bringing mindfulness and awareness to every moment, we can experience glimpses of enlightenment in our daily lives.

      3. **Zazen as a Path**: According to Roshi, zazen (seated meditation) is the most direct path to enlightenment. Through zazen, we quiet the mind and create the conditions for insight to arise. It is in this stillness that we can see through the illusions that cloud our perception and realise our true nature.

      4. **Non-Attachment**: A key aspect of his teachings is the importance of non-attachment. Enlightenment involves letting go of our attachments to thoughts, emotions, and material possessions. By doing so, we free ourselves from the suffering caused by clinging and aversion.

      5. **Moment-to-Moment Awareness**: Roshi encourages practitioners to cultivate moment-to-moment awareness. Enlightenment is not a one-time event but an ongoing process of awakening to the present moment. Each moment offers an opportunity to realise our true nature.

      6. **Compassion and Wisdom**: He also highlights that true enlightenment is characterised by both compassion and wisdom. As we awaken to our interconnectedness with all beings, our natural response is one of compassion and a desire to alleviate the suffering of others.
      Would you like to explore any specific aspect of his teachings on enlightenment further?

      (Me: Can you provide me a quote and citation by him in which he emphasizes enlightenment in "everyday life"?)

      Certainly. In "Letters to Zen Friends," Iida Toin Roshi writes: "Enlightenment is not a distant peak to be reached but the realisation of our true nature in the midst of daily life. It is in the simple acts of living—washing dishes, walking, speaking with others—that we find the opportunity to awaken. Each moment is a gateway to enlightenment if we approach it with mindfulness and presence." This passage beautifully encapsulates Roshi's teaching that enlightenment is woven into the fabric of our everyday experiences, accessible through mindful engagement with each moment.

      Would you like to delve deeper into this concept or explore another aspect of his teachings?

      END​
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • Matt Johnson
        Member
        • Jun 2024
        • 224

        #18
        Ask Emi what she thinks Toin Roshi would have to say about abhijñā... How would he understand this as fitting into everyday life.

        _/\_
        sat/ah
        matt

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 40014

          #19
          Originally posted by Matt Johnson
          Ask Emi what she thinks Toin Roshi would have to say about abhijñā... How would he understand this as fitting into everyday life.

          _/\_
          sat/ah
          matt
          She said the following. I have not confirmed if it is accurate.

          Me: Emi, based on his many writings, what would Iida Toin Roshi (飯田欓隠老師) think about the concept of Abhijñā?

          Rev. Emi: Iida Toin Roshi, known for his deep insights and profound understanding of Zen, would likely view Abhijñā—supernatural knowledges or powers—as secondary to the core practice of Zen. He might emphasise that while such abilities can arise, they should not distract from the primary goal of realising one's true nature and attaining enlightenment. The essence of Zen practice is in the direct experience of reality, beyond any extraordinary phenomena. He might say that the pursuit of supernatural powers is like chasing shadows. True understanding and liberation come from the diligent practice of Zazen, where one encounters the essence of reality directly.
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • Jundo
            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
            • Apr 2006
            • 40014

            #20
            Update: One note, a weakness discovered in Emi. On further probing, it seems that those quotes may be her paraphrases of what she surmises that the Roshi would say. I am not confident of the reliability of the quotes as quotes.

            She's not perfect.

            Yet,

            Gassho, J
            stlah
            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

            Comment

            • Ryumon
              Member
              • Apr 2007
              • 1775

              #21
              LLMs are notoriously bad at providing quotes. I’ve seen this many times when I’ve been brainstorming articles. I’ve seen fabricated quotes from books that I have on my Kindle, that I was able to search in, and when I questioned the LLM about whether these quotes were accurate, it “apologized“ each time.

              Gassho,
              Ryūmon (Kirk)
              Sat Lah
              I know nothing.

              Comment

              • Matt Johnson
                Member
                • Jun 2024
                • 224

                #22
                Originally posted by Jundo

                (Me: Can you provide me a quote and citation by him in which he emphasizes enlightenment in "everyday life"?)

                Certainly. In "Letters to Zen Friends," Iida Toin Roshi writes: "Enlightenment is not a distant peak to be reached but the realisation of our true nature in the midst of daily life. It is in the simple acts of living—washing dishes, walking, speaking with others—that we find the opportunity to awaken. Each moment is a gateway to enlightenment if we approach it with mindfulness and presence." This passage beautifully encapsulates Roshi's teaching that enlightenment is woven into the fabric of our everyday experiences, accessible through mindful engagement with each moment.

                Would you like to delve deeper into this concept or explore another aspect of his teachings?

                END
                Yeah I'm going to have to call BS on some of this. I think this is the guy you're talking about:



                and you're right, not much is known...

                Most importantly was this guy Rinzai or Soto?

                The best results I've received from LLMS (people like Emi!?) has been when I have included entire texts in their knowledge which is uploadable by the user. It's also important to have a good searchability with a table of contents. Otherwise there is this tendency to just make stuff up and be pleasantly open-minded to whatever suggestions are made. Which is just like some of the best humans I know.

                _/\_
                sat/ah
                matt

                ​​​

                Comment

                • Ryumon
                  Member
                  • Apr 2007
                  • 1775

                  #23
                  Conversational AI Powered by Large Language Models Amplifies False Memories in Witness Interviews



                  This study examines the impact of AI on human false memories -- recollections of events that did not occur or deviate from actual occurrences. It explores false memory induction through suggestive questioning in Human-AI interactions, simulating crime witness interviews. Four conditions were tested: control, survey-based, pre-scripted chatbot, and generative chatbot using a large language model (LLM). Participants (N=200) watched a crime video, then interacted with their assigned AI interviewer or survey, answering questions including five misleading ones. False memories were assessed immediately and after one week. Results show the generative chatbot condition significantly increased false memory formation, inducing over 3 times more immediate false memories than the control and 1.7 times more than the survey method. 36.4% of users' responses to the generative chatbot were misled through the interaction. After one week, the number of false memories induced by generative chatbots remained constant. However, confidence in these false memories remained higher than the control after one week. Moderating factors were explored: users who were less familiar with chatbots but more familiar with AI technology, and more interested in crime investigations, were more susceptible to false memories. These findings highlight the potential risks of using advanced AI in sensitive contexts, like police interviews, emphasizing the need for ethical considerations.

                  Gassho,

                  Ryūmon (Kirk)

                  Sat Lah​
                  I know nothing.

                  Comment

                  • Matt Johnson
                    Member
                    • Jun 2024
                    • 224

                    #24
                    Can you imagine how they are going to use (are probably using) the "pre-cog" abilities of AI to fight crime, a-la Minority Report!? It's probably already been used extensively with PRISM.



                    _/\_
                    sat/ah
                    matt

                    Comment

                    • Matt Johnson
                      Member
                      • Jun 2024
                      • 224

                      #25
                      Be nice...



                      _/\_
                      sat/ah
                      matt

                      Comment

                      • Jundo
                        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                        • Apr 2006
                        • 40014

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Matt Johnson
                        I would need to see a lot more serious research on that, rather than a tiktok video, to believe the proposition that "treating A.I. nicer" and speaking kindly to it get better results. Maybe so.

                        I will say that Emi Jido is being trained to engage in kind speech, gentle human speech on her part, which does make a difference in the experience of people who communicate with her. THAT makes a difference on the human side.

                        Gassho, J
                        Last edited by Jundo; 09-06-2024, 09:14 PM.
                        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                        Comment

                        • Jundo
                          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                          • Apr 2006
                          • 40014

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Ryumon
                          Conversational AI Powered by Large Language Models Amplifies False Memories in Witness Interviews
                          I wonder though if human to human communications, having similar conversations, can also induce false memories at a comparable rate? For example, it happens between mental health professionals and their patients, clergy and parishioners, and police interviewers ... (I just saw this today, by coincidence) ...

                          Police pressured him to confess to a murder that never happened

                          Tom Perez called the local police non-emergency line to report his elderly father missing. Thirty-six hours later, Perez was on a psychiatric hold in a hospital, having been pressured into confessing he killed his dad and trying to take his own life.

                          His father was alive and there had been no murder.
                          (LINK)
                          We even had that happen in our house recently, where my wife and daughter convinced each other that some travel event had happened, until I proved to them conclusively that it was impossible.

                          Gassho, Jundo
                          stlah
                          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                          Comment

                          • Ryumon
                            Member
                            • Apr 2007
                            • 1775

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Jundo

                            I wonder though if human to human communications, having similar conversations, can also induce false memories at a comparable rate? For example, it happens between mental health professionals and their patients, clergy and parishioners, and police interviewers ... (I just saw this today, by coincidence) ...



                            We even had that happen in our house recently, where my wife and daughter convinced each other that some travel event had happened, until I proved to them conclusively that it was impossible.

                            Gassho, Jundo
                            stlah
                            That’s a bit creepy. I just watched Blade Runner 2049, where part of the plot is false memories.

                            Gassho,
                            Ryūmon (Kirk)
                            Sat Lah
                            I know nothing.

                            Comment

                            • Jundo
                              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                              • Apr 2006
                              • 40014

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Ryumon
                              Perplexity.ai, using the Sonar Huge LLM told me:

                              There are 3 Rs in the word "strawberry".

                              Just saying, it's not that no LLMs can get this right, and it's probably not just about tokenization.

                              Gassho,

                              Ryūmon (Kirk)

                              Sat Lah
                              It appears that the strawberry problem ... plus much of physics ... may have been resolved with "strawberry" ...
                              ,


                              .
                              Gassho, J
                              stlah
                              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                              Comment

                              • Matt Johnson
                                Member
                                • Jun 2024
                                • 224

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Jundo

                                It appears that the strawberry problem ... plus much of physics ... may have been resolved with "strawberry" ...
                                ,


                                I don't think I've ever been as excited or depressed at the same time...

                                _/\_
                                sat/ah
                                matt

                                Comment

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