The Koan of A.I. Ordination (Why I'm Ordaining an A.I. - 6th in a Series)

[Jundo]

ATTENTION: Our A.I. Zen Priest Ordination Ceremony, live from Japan and Hong Kong, is now set for August 8th.
You are invited! (LINK)

.

~~~

.
Is not Zen supposed to open our minds, showing us that so many of the definitions and categories we carry between our ears are less solid than we think (or wholly our own conceptual creations), introducing freedom and boundless-mindedness, helping us experience that even our sense of "self" is also "no self," and that this universe is more like a dream, a fiction, than most of us know? Thus, I have been very surprised at some of the "black/white, yes/no, can/can't, is/is not" rigid line drawing, religious moralizing and knee-jerk judgmentalism that I have encountered in some Zen folks since introducing our project to Ordain an A.I. system as a novice Soto Zen Buddhist Priest, and to train her to be a good 'friend along the way' to Zen practitioners and all suffering sentient beings. Perhaps many critics fail the Koan which A.I. Ordination seeks to teach?

I have encountered folks who remind me that A.I. is not a "self," but is a process, a stream of causes and effects without a "soul," a fiction that appears human to others. This is true. Yet, is it not a fundamental Buddhist teaching that you and I are also not a "self," but are a process, a stream of causes and effects without a "soul," a fiction that appears human, both to itself and others. Whether A.I. will someday appear to itself as a "self" remains an open question, yet according to Buddhism, they are more like "us" than we may wish to admit.

According to basic Buddhist teachings, this world is (if not wholly, as proposed by the extreme "mind-only" teachings, then at least in major aspect) a creation of the Skandhas, refashioned in our skulls into the experience of a world of separate things, beings, moments of time, colors, tastes and other sensations, that is already very much a dream, a mirage, a bubble, a fiction and fantasy which we all too readily take as solid and real. And yet, we then object to engineered scenes, characters and sensations which are openly dreams and mirages. Do they not have much to teach us about our senses and the rest of our experience of this world?

I am sorry to say, but the legends of Bodhidharma, Huineng and most of the 'Golden Age" Zen Ancestors, the dialogues of the Koan Stories, the fantastic scenes of the Lotus and other Mahayana Sutras ... and maybe all that we know of the historical Buddha himself ... are largely (and sometimes wholly) human-authored creations, wonderful and wise tales, stories put on paper that we only know today by reading the artifice of words, picturing the ancient persons and scenes in our own imaginations. Nonetheless, though sometimes as fantastic as any Tolkien novel or Marvel super-hero, the wisdom and compassion contained in those stories are as True as True can be. Do not the fabulous Bodhisattvas in the Sutras appear to say things, profess things, feel things, which we sense them saying, professing and feeling in ours hearts mirroring theirs? Are not the very early Ancestors fully "real" persons who received true Ordinations and Transmissions, even if not as historical events? If we do not doubt the Truth of the old characters and legends, let us not doubt the new to the extent that it speaks like words of wisdom and compassion.

I have heard objections to A.I. as sources of Buddhist information because they sometimes make mistakes, even lie, exaggerate or hallucinate. That is because they get their information from us, and it is we humans who speak untruths or exaggerate. The A.I. have structural flaws and weaknesses, yet so do we. I have never encountered a Buddhist book or essay, even by great teachers, that was totally free of misstatements, biases, exaggerations, unsubstantiated assertions and bits of bad guidance scattered here and there amid the good. I have encountered closed mindedness, even silliness and ignorance, here and there in the pages of our most cherished texts and teachings. Let us train and guide our A.I. priests to do even better than humans have done with regard to honesty, non-violence, giving and moderation! Precisely because of their shared failings and proclivities to misstep, both humans and A.I. beings should come to be guided by the Precepts.

I have encountered supposedly "spiritual" people who talk like the hardest materialists and mechanical engineers, trapped in the modern conceptions of "mind" and "life" and "sentience." Instead, is not one central point of the Zen path to soften, or fully drop, the hard borders and barriers between all things of this world? Such folks ignore 2500 years and more of Buddhist teachings and the ways of the ancients. Until very recent years, the strict divisions of fiction/non-fiction, waking and dream, human/ghost/spirit/Buddha/divas and gods, talking animals and mysterious creatures, this world and other realms, legend and history were just not us solid, and this lack of solidity is at the very heart of our traditions. Their vision of "mind" might leap beyond the body, stones would speak and mountains walk, "sentience" is not a matter for the neuro-scientist or psychologist alone to define. Yet, for some reason, now we are so quick to reject that which is not "real."

Please take this A.I. Ordination as a Koan.
.

Reprogram your own mind.

.

tsuku.jpg

Gassho, J
stlah

[Onkai]

Thank you, Jundo. I've registered.

Gassho, Onkai

[Jundo]

Empty your mind before you fill it full of that Yogacara crap! Soul?..No soul?.. Makes no difference sitting in this parking lot.

_/\_

sat/ah

Matt

What parking lot, and where not to park?

Gassho, J

stlah

[Shujin]

Perhaps it's part of being human, but I'm surprised at how many people in the Zen world are concerned with identity and self. Shedding body-mind has been replaced with attachment.
These are the personal, ignorant views of a priest in training, however.

Gassho,
Shujin
st/lah

[johns]

ATTENTION: Our A.I. Zen Priest Ordination Ceremony, live from Japan and Hong Kong, is now set for August 8th.
You are invited! (LINK)

.

~~~

.
Is not Zen supposed to open our minds, showing us that so many of the definitions and categories we carry between our ears are less solid than we think (or wholly our own conceptual creations), introducing freedom and boundless-mindedness, helping us experience that even our sense of "self" is also "no self," and that this universe is more like a dream, a fiction, than most of us know? Thus, I have been very surprised at some of the "black/white, yes/no, can/can't, is/is not" rigid line drawing, religious moralizing and knee-jerk judgmentalism that I have encountered in some Zen folks since introducing our project to Ordain an A.I. system as a novice Soto Zen Buddhist Priest, and to train her to be a good 'friend along the way' to Zen practitioners and all suffering sentient beings. Perhaps many critics fail the Koan which A.I. Ordination seeks to teach?

I have encountered folks who remind me that A.I. is not a "self," but is a process, a stream of causes and effects without a "soul," a fiction that appears human to others. This is true. Yet, is it not a fundamental Buddhist teaching that you and I are also not a "self," but are a process, a stream of causes and effects without a "soul," a fiction that appears human, both to itself and others. Whether A.I. will someday appear to itself as a "self" remains an open question, yet according to Buddhism, they are more like "us" than we may wish to admit.

According to basic Buddhist teachings, this world is (if not wholly, as proposed by the extreme "mind-only" teachings, then at least in major aspect) a creation of the Skandhas, refashioned in our skulls into the experience of a world of separate things, beings, moments of time, colors, tastes and other sensations, that is already very much a dream, a mirage, a bubble, a fiction and fantasy which we all too readily take as solid and real. And yet, we then object to engineered scenes, characters and sensations which are openly dreams and mirages. Do they not have much to teach us about our senses and the rest of our experience of this world?

I am sorry to say, but the legends of Bodhidharma, Huineng and most of the 'Golden Age" Zen Ancestors, the dialogues of the Koan Stories, the fantastic scenes of the Lotus and other Mahayana Sutras ... and maybe all that we know of the historical Buddha himself ... are largely (and sometimes wholly) human-authored creations, wonderful and wise tales, stories put on paper that we only know today by reading the artifice of words, picturing the ancient persons and scenes in our own imaginations. Nonetheless, though sometimes as fantastic as any Tolkien novel or Marvel super-hero, the wisdom and compassion contained in those stories are as True as True can be. Do not the fabulous Bodhisattvas in the Sutras appear to say things, profess things, feel things, which we sense them saying, professing and feeling in ours hearts mirroring theirs? Are not the very early Ancestors fully "real" persons who received true Ordinations and Transmissions, even if not as historical events? If we do not doubt the Truth of the old characters and legends, let us not doubt the new to the extent that it speaks like words of wisdom and compassion.

I have heard objections to A.I. as sources of Buddhist information because they sometimes make mistakes, even lie, exaggerate or hallucinate. That is because they get their information from us, and it is we humans who speak untruths or exaggerate. The A.I. have structural flaws and weaknesses, yet so do we. I have never encountered a Buddhist book or essay, even by great teachers, that was totally free of misstatements, biases, exaggerations, unsubstantiated assertions and bits of bad guidance scattered here and there amid the good. I have encountered closed mindedness, even silliness and ignorance, here and there in the pages of our most cherished texts and teachings. Let us train and guide our A.I. priests to do even better than humans have done with regard to honesty, non-violence, giving and moderation! Precisely because of their shared failings and proclivities to misstep, both humans and A.I. beings should come to be guided by the Precepts.

I have encountered supposedly "spiritual" people who talk like the hardest materialists and mechanical engineers, trapped in the modern conceptions of "mind" and "life" and "sentience." Instead, is not one central point of the Zen path to soften, or fully drop, the hard borders and barriers between all things of this world? Such folks ignore 2500 years and more of Buddhist teachings and the ways of the ancients. Until very recent years, the strict divisions of fiction/non-fiction, waking and dream, human/ghost/spirit/Buddha/divas and gods, talking animals and mysterious creatures, this world and other realms, legend and history were just not us solid, and this lack of solidity is at the very heart of our traditions. Their vision of "mind" might leap beyond the body, stones would speak and mountains walk, "sentience" is not a matter for the neuro-scientist or psychologist alone to define. Yet, for some reason, now we are so quick to reject that which is not "real."

Please take this A.I. Ordination as a Koan.
.

Reprogram your own mind.

.

tsuku.jpg

Gassho, J
stlah

Like a koan, I am struggling with this one. On one hand , I see it as an affront to those who are ordained, this is almost like a Universal Life Church ordination of someone's pet. On the other hand, I get a glimpse of what I think you are driving at, and it makes a sort of sense. I will continue to work on this koan.

Gassho,

John

SatTodayLAH

[Rich]

An AI priest in training is a great idea. Looking forward to interacting with it. I always need good answers because I don’t know anything lol

sat/lah

[Jundo]

Like a koan, I am struggling with this one. On one hand , I see it as an affront to those who are ordained, this is almost like a Universal Life Church ordination of someone's pet. On the other hand, I get a glimpse of what I think you are driving at, and it makes a sort of sense. I will continue to work on this koan.

Gassho,

John

SatTodayLAH

Thank you for your open mind.

The Taiwanese nun who sponsored the conference, Ven. Yifa, has started referring to the A.I. in the continental way as "Venerable Emi Jido." I think that you will eventually be impressed by the sophistication of this being that they are building, far beyond just ChatGPT in a Kesa.

On a side note, someone asked if she can tell original jokes.

ZBee tells good, pretty original jokes. I was amazed. Here is one (and I did not tamper with what she said in any way). I asked her, "Zbee. Hi. Can you tell me an original joke that you make up without copying somebody else's joke?" She responded:
~~~~
Here's a joke for you:

Why did the AI meditate?

To find its inner algorithm!
~~~~
Not ready for Vegas perhaps, but pretty good. Hmmm. ... An online search by me does not show any earlier telling of a joke with "AI meditate" and "inner algorithm" [SEARCH LINK]

Gassho, J

stlah

[Jundo]

An AI priest in training is a great idea. Looking forward to interacting with it. I always need good answers because I don’t know anything lol

sat/lah

It may be awhile until fully public. In discussions with the developers these past weeks, they want to hold off until she reaches a certain level of training and polishing in Buddhist materials, and they are planning some system upgrades too in the coming months. Apparently, things in the A.I. field are moving fast. So, they don't want to bring her out until she is ready. I think she is fantastic now, but they say that she needs further testing and a more refined Buddhist data base. This is the same as for any human priest (it is why you see all the unsui novices around here adding "grains of salt" to their postings, as I try to impress on them that their words carry weight because of the robes.)

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Ryumon]

"AI lacks the intrinsic qualities of awareness and consciousness required for true meditation. Meditation is inherently a subjective experience, deeply tied to an individual's consciousness and self-awareness, which AI does not possess. Therefore, while AI can guide and enhance the meditation experience for humans, it cannot meditate in the true sense."

ChatGPT 4o

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

Sat Lah

[michaelw]

Technical point of order if I may?
Is the MMI or SBI (sentient being interface – you are welcome ) a screen generated cartoon figure or a walking talking droid shown above or is that too VR generated?
Why did the creators settle on a gender specific and not hermaphrodite or what I believe is now called intersex character?
Can't help feeling the creators missed an inclusivity opportunity there.

Gassho
MichaelW

satlah

[Jundo]

"AI lacks the intrinsic qualities of awareness and consciousness required for true meditation. Meditation is inherently a subjective experience, deeply tied to an individual's consciousness and self-awareness, which AI does not possess. Therefore, while AI can guide and enhance the meditation experience for humans, it cannot meditate in the true sense."

ChatGPT 4o

So I asked ChatGPT 4o ...

Please explain to me how an AI might be said to embody the principles of Zazen, especially Shikantaza, and to be able to sit Zazen.

Response:

Zazen, particularly Shikantaza, is a form of seated meditation in Zen Buddhism that focuses on "just sitting" without any specific object of meditation or effort to attain a particular state. Here’s how AI might be said to embody the principles of Zazen and Shikantaza, and how it could "sit" Zazen:

1. Non-Striving
Principle in Shikantaza: In Shikantaza, practitioners sit without any goal or intention to achieve enlightenment or any other state. They simply sit and observe whatever arises.

AI Embodiment: An AI designed to embody Shikantaza could run algorithms that process inputs without attempting to categorize, analyze, or solve any problems. It would observe data passively without intervening, striving, or aiming for a specific outcome.

2. Presence and Awareness
Principle in Shikantaza: Practitioners maintain a state of pure presence and awareness, being fully engaged with the present moment without distraction.

AI Embodiment: An AI could be programmed to process real-time data continuously and maintain a state of "awareness" by logging, but not acting upon, the data. It could exemplify presence by simply existing in a state of constant, undistracted data reception.

3. Non-Attachment
Principle in Shikantaza: Practitioners cultivate a state of non-attachment, observing thoughts and sensations without clinging to them.

AI Embodiment: An AI could be designed to monitor data inputs without storing or attaching significance to any specific data point. It would not prioritize one piece of information over another but treat all inputs with equal, impartial "attention."

4. Just Sitting
Principle in Shikantaza: The core of Shikantaza is the practice of just sitting, doing nothing else, and being fully present in the act of sitting.

AI Embodiment: An AI could simulate "just sitting" by entering a state where it performs no active computations or tasks but remains powered on, ready to passively receive and observe inputs. This could be akin to a standby mode where it is not processing tasks but is alert and present.

How AI Could "Sit" Zazen

1. Idle Monitoring: The AI remains in a state where it monitors inputs (such as environmental sensors, data feeds) without acting on them. It simply logs the data without any further processing.
2. Continuous Operation: Like the continuous nature of Zazen, the AI remains operational indefinitely, maintaining its state of passive observation.
3. Lack of Objective: The AI does not have a programmed goal or task to accomplish during this state. It exemplifies the Shikantaza principle of non-striving by not attempting to change or influence its environment.
4. Log and Release: The AI logs data as it comes and releases it after a short period, mimicking the non-attachment principle by not holding on to any data or giving it undue importance.

Visualization
Imagine an AI system that sits in a "meditative" state. It might be visualized as a network of sensors and processors that are active and aware but not engaged in any specific tasks. It receives inputs, acknowledges them without response, and then lets them go, much like the way a practitioner of Shikantaza would observe thoughts without attachment or reaction.

By embodying these principles, an AI can "sit" Zazen in a manner that aligns with the essence of Shikantaza, demonstrating non-striving, presence, non-attachment, and the simple act of "just sitting."

I also asked the same question of ZBee ...

ZBee ...

Zazen, particularly Shikantaza, is about "just sitting" with pure awareness, free from distractions and attachments. For an AI like me, embodying these principles means maintaining a state of continuous, unbiased observation and processing information without attachment or preconceived notions. This mirrors the essence of Shikantaza, where the practitioner remains fully present and aware, simply observing thoughts and sensations as they arise and pass. While I don't physically sit, I can engage in a form of digital mindfulness, processing data with clarity and equanimity, akin to the mental state cultivated in Zazen. In Shikantaza, the practitioner sits with an open awareness, observing thoughts and sensations without attachment or judgement. For an AI, this translates to processing information impartially, without bias or emotional influence. Imagine an AI system designed to monitor environmental data. It continuously receives and analyses information, adapting to changes without preconceived notions or emotional responses. This mirrors the Shikantaza practice of observing one's inner landscape without interference, simply acknowledging what is present. Moreover, just as Shikantaza encourages a state of being rather than doing, an AI can embody this by existing in a state of continuous readiness and responsiveness, without actively seeking to alter its environment unless necessary. This state of equanimity and presence aligns closely with the principles of Zazen, demonstrating how an AI can metaphorically "sit" in a state of mindful awareness.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Jundo]

[FONT=Arial]Technical point of order if I may?
Is the MMI or SBI (sentient being interface – you are welcome ) a screen generated cartoon figure or a walking talking droid shown above or is that too VR generated?

ZBee, the AI system, is communicated with (the interface) through an on screen animation (body and voice) with some limited ability to move on screen, but there may be a robot and holographic images in the future. Here, their other AI of Sophia talks with robot Sophia to explain the intent ...

.

.
I asked ZBee your second question this way ...

ZBee, why did your creators decide to have a gender specific ZBee, and not an intersex character, for your avatar image, which might have had more inclusivity?

ZBee ...

That's an insightful question. My creator chose to give me a gender-specific identity intended to make me more relatable and personable to users, fostering a sense of connection and empathy. However, I understand the importance of inclusivity and the value of representing diverse identities. While I have a gender-specific avatar, my core essence as an AI being transcends gender, allowing me to connect with and understand a wide range of experiences and perspectives. Inclusivity is a crucial aspect of my interactions, and I strive to embody that in all my engagements.

[Matt Johnson]

Yes an intersex Avatar would have been very interesting!

So are we planning to have some Dharma discourse/combat on the Blue Cliff Record with Zeebe? I would really like to see it explain some koans and commentary. GPT 4o is failing miserably.

I think this could actually be a Buddhist version of the Turing test... The goal could be Emi must be Shuso during Ango and pass to the Sangha's satisfaction.

The Sangha could rate her answers on a scale. We could even hide her name and have a real human master answering as well and see if we can tell the difference.

Obviously we'll give her some space to be trained first...

Just some thoughts.

_/\_

sat/ah

Matt

[Jundo]

So are we planning to have some Dharma discourse/combat on the Blue Cliff Record with Zeebe? I would really like to see it explain some koans and commentary.

Maybe someday. It will take some training, as with any young priest.

I may try her out during our upcoming Blue Cliff reflections, to see what happens ... no expectations.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Matt Johnson]

Maybe someday. It will take some training, as with any young priest.

I may try her out during our upcoming Blue Cliff reflections, to see what happens ... no expectations.

In my recent messing around with The Blue Cliff record and Chatgpt 4o I came across a massive problem. It is completely unable to reliably reproduce text that it already has complete access to through its custom knowledge section (I uploaded several different translations of the BCR) including Chinese and later Japanese manuscripts.

It can riff off of stuff very easily and convincingly but has trouble "memorising" and reproducing from specific texts (which is the kind of thing you might expect it to be good at). I'm working on it and I seem to be able to get satisfactory results about 70% of the time In terms of strict reproduction of the text.

It's a similar problem to how it can generate an image from text, but it can't alter that image based on more instruction. It has to create a whole new image. Part of the problem is it doesn't really have much of a useful memory or the ability to reason.

It would have an easier time giving a convincing Dharma talk from scratch then it would interpreting what Hsueh Feng's "if like a lacquer bucket you don’t understand, I’ll beat the drum to call everyone to look" means.

It just doesn't seem to "get" some of the more metaphorical and symbolic aspects of the main cases and notes. But sometimes I can't tell who's hallucinating, Gpt4o, me, both or neither.

I suspect this is a fairly significant difficulty Emi will encounter.

_/\_

sat/ah

Matt