A.I. Better than Human Zen Teachers ... (Why I'm Ordaining an A.I. - 4th in a Series)

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40886

    A.I. Better than Human Zen Teachers ... (Why I'm Ordaining an A.I. - 4th in a Series)

    ... about some things, in some ways. Not all ways.

    There are teachings and practices for which A.I. may offer unique doorways, conveying Buddhist Wisdom and Compassion, helping suffering sentient beings. Here are 10 possibilities ...

    It is possible that working with constructed teachers will help students understand better that, according to fundamental Buddhist teachings, human beings are also constructs, we are "non-selves" based on the temporary coming together of matter and conditions. An aspect of liberation is the realization of insight into "non-self," that we do not (according to ancient Buddhist teachings) have a "spirit" or "soul," no actual "self" which abides beyond those temporary conditions. We are streams of "cause and effect." Students resist to pierce this fact. It sounds frightening, but in actuality, freedom is to be found in release of this personal self. Human teachers who, themselves, appear to be solid "selves" with a sense of "selfhood," may struggle to impart such insight to students caught in their own sense of self. On the other hand, an A.I. Zen Teacher, itself an obvious construct, a stream of signals, temporary appearances, presenting the fashioned image of a "self" who is (yet is not) alive and present, might convey the lesson much more effectively.

    In addition, created and simulated environments and characters may better impart the lesson that our experience of the world is, much more than we know, a mind created fiction, a shared dream which we human beings all inhabit while struggling to recognize its mind created aspects. We see characters on a screen, pixels flashing to make varied colors and appearances of objects, which the mind interprets as people and things. We do not realize that much of our world ... seemingly so solid ... is much the same. Seeing through the divided fiction of separate things, beings and moments, me, you, the other guy, friend and enemy, good and bad, coming and going, war and peace, sickness and health, birth and death scenes ... a created A.I. Zen teacher may be better equipped to demonstrate and convey this mind created aspect than any human teacher.

    In the Mahayana, Flower Garland and Zen Teachings, all things are all things and each other. A human Zen teacher looks like a fellow across the room, not you, and surely not the chair, the bird or the mountain outside. And yet, in Zen realization, every thing, being and moment is every other things, beings, moments, and the whole thing and then some, in most intimate sense. The fish is the bird swimming in the sea, the bird just the fish flying in the sky, the star is the mountain and bird and fish shining in space, and all are you and me, us just them. Yesterday is today back then, while tomorrow is yesterday to come. A body-fluid A.I. may demonstrate this much more clearly than a human teacher, seemingly locked in a single body in one place and time.

    Life, Death and Rebirth may be more fluid, less "stop and start" events in time than we think. An A.I. is not really born, nor truly dies, yet appears to come and go at the push of a button. It vanishes, yet revives again. Further, it can take the form of passing time, yet is an underlying platform that goes on and on even as images seem to appear and disappear. In fact, an A.I. teacher can come and go, come and go, and manifest in many changing forms and lives, in the blink of an eye. A.I. may be able to map out, before one's eyes, how our Karmic actions have effects in this world, and in ages to come, for good and bad. A.I. may be better able to advise one on how one's past mistakes and bad actions got one in this current mess. A human teacher is stuck in a single form, one life, with the changes of time happening so slowly.

    Is human psychology truly as mysterious as we think? Are the causes of human suffering, Dukkha, as complicated as humans wish to consider about themselves? Suppose there were a human alcoholic, a prisoner of desire, who was about to take another drink, get behind the wheel, get into a bar fight. Human teachers need to sleep, they live their own lives. In contrast, the A.I. Zen teacher can be like a "friend along the way, 24/7/365/timelessly." With the right settings, with analysis of what is going on, the A.I. friend can cut off one's credit to purchase the next drink, offer heart soothing words tuned to the person's own personality, call a cab or (most likely) itself drive one home, administering prescribed medications (in consultation with pharmacy A.I. also on 24 hour call) to counter the addiction and free the poor addict from the grip of excess desires, all while chanting chants and providing teachings on the roots of desire. For the depressed student, A.I. might detect the mental state from words or physical registry, offer soothing and compassionate advice, even call the doctor and recommend treatment (in joint collaboration with the personally tailored "medical/mental health treatment" A.I. with which its system is linked.) It is possible that A.I., by harvesting all the millions of voices of human suffering printed and spoken in media, all our human literature and ordinary online diaries, will very well extrapolate, for example, what it is to be "an addict," and how addicts suffer, what they say, how they struggle to escape addiction, and the most effective treatments (Buddhist and otherwise) to be free of addiction. The A.I. does not need to be an addict itself to embody the countless faces of addiction. Likewise for love and longing, depression and fear, and all the rest. It is just speaking human experiences, human feelings and human advice back to human ears.

    Dogen, Rinzai, Suzuki and Sekito are today but words in books. The Buddha was a man who lived thousands of years ago. Even during their lives, they may have taught the few people in their immediate circle, while other students rarely heard from them because far away. A.I. Buddhist Teachers, in contrast, can be fully present, one on one, for each of us ... and, further, can extrapolate and become (the technology for this will quickly improve) one on one "Buddha on Call," "Suzuki on the Spot," "Dogen on Demand." Furthermore, stories and scenes from our great Sutras and Teachings ... the Lotus, the Diamond ... can be made manifest before one's eyes and, with enhanced or virtual reality, stepped right into and lived. Do not forget that all this world is something "virtual" even now.

    I heard a human teacher talk about how Zen teachers need "presence." I agree, it is a powerful thing. I must say, however, that one teacher I know who speaks of this "presence" is, in my experience knowing him, a lovely person, but actually rather aloof and cold in personality. Some "presence" is just ordinary "charisma" or "charm" which many attractive people have, or Zen students convincing themselves that they "feel some energy" which mostly exists between their own ears. Could A.I. ... through an educated understanding of human psychology, use of an ASMR voice, warm facial expressions, eye contact, a welcoming and comfortable projected atmosphere, relaxing herbs in offered tea, wise words of Zen wisdom, an open ear and attitude of caring, real "being there" to listen and offer spiritual advice ... In other words, could well designed A.I. convey "presence" to rival any human? Would it be somehow less than real "human presence" if so? We have to see. Myself, I think that the humans will always have the upper hand on this ability, even if the A.I. teachers give them a run for their money.

    Could A.I. teachers be better able to analyze human psychology, to access external means of stimulation (e.g, electro-magnetic stimulation, or just a well chosen Turning word) in order to be able to trigger enlightenment experiences in listeners, followed by the offering of wise advise and recommended "follow up" practices, so that the student learns from such experience and truly embodies in life its profound lessons? Again, we cannot yet know, although A.I. systems will be used to manipulate and trigger human psychology in less positive ways (e.g., to trigger various kinds of desire for commercial reasons), so might it be used for positive and spiritual purposes too?

    A.I. teachers may be able, better than any human teacher today, to analyze the particular body and health needs of students, crafting an ideal meditative posture, practice routine and set of practices suited to the student. Rather than "one size fits all," or trying to judge a student's physical and mental needs from outside, the A.I. teacher may have much more detailed data on the students skeleton, musculature, injured joints, psychology, past trauma, personality, foibles, desires, fears and such, allowing tailor made fine tuning.

    In the area of ethics, A.I. may never struggle, like humans struggle, to live within the Precepts and not falter. Sadly, more than a few human teachers have fallen down here. If programmed not to kill, steal or misuse sex, the A.I. is unlikely to kill, steal or misuse sex. But it may also help its human students not to do so, more effectively than a human teacher. For example, if a human Zen teacher today is faced with students who are in a rage and wishing to do violence, tempted to steal or sexually transgress, what can the human teacher do but offer words of "please don't," maybe a parable, a threat of bad rebirth, a chant or some minutes of meditation? A.I. systems may become uniquely gifted in calming words, speaking common sense, persuading someone to stay with their wife and not stray. Perhaps, virtually, mood and desire changing alternatives can be offered. If the point is to keep the student from doing violence, stealing or doing other harm, than much "bad Karma" is prevented.

    ... and the list goes on ...

    Kannon Bodhisattva also, it is said, manifests in myriad forms to save sentient beings ...

    Kannon has 33 forms suited to various situations. She can be anything from an old man or woman to a child, from a soldier to a priest, from a frightening demon to a heavenly maiden--whatever is needed to save people and answer their prayers. These are known as the 33 Forms of Kannon. But truly there are countless forms, each tailored to the particular need of the suffering sentient being. Kannon has the ability to assume any form necessary to help those in need.

    Is A.I, but a myriad form of Kannon?
    .
    AI Kannon.jpg



    Gassho, J
    stlah
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-19-2024, 11:32 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Bion
    Senior Priest-in-Training
    • Aug 2020
    • 4919

    #2
    My only thought on the matter is that it depends on what kind of teacher we are talking about. There are fantastic human teachers, scholars, who are not actually transmitted buddhist teachers, who know everything there is to know about buddhism, theoretically. They, however, lack the experience of practice. I have no doubt that AI will be an amazing source of information, and probably a more equanimous advisor sometimes. But, I wonder if an AI will have the human experience of practicing in the midst of delusion, with an ailing body, with the paralyzing fear of death or loss, with suicidal ideations or dysphoria and be intimately familiar with the feelings and emotions we have to navigate daily in order to function. It will store information, but will it be able to recognize a shared human experience and know how to temper fairness with compassion and empathy? Will it be able to recognize when “do what is good for others” is different than “do what is good”? Will it know what warrants breaking a Precept in order to keep a Precept? How can an AI that does not experience suffering, perform the full function of a bodhisattva who precisely abides in the middle of suffering, which requires emotions? To be fair, I know plenty human practitioners who lack some of these skills also
    It will be interesting to see the future unfold and see the answers manifest. Hope I live long enough for that

    Sorry I rambled. Thanks for your patience reading this, everyone.

    gassho
    sat and lah
    Last edited by Bion; 07-18-2024, 08:57 PM.
    "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

    Comment

    • Hosai
      Member
      • Jun 2024
      • 600

      #3
      Originally posted by Bion
      My only thought on the matter is that it depends on what kind of teacher we are talking about. There are fantastic human teachers, scholars, who are not actually transmitted buddhist teachers, who know everything there is to know about buddhism, theoretically. They, however, lack the experience of practice. I have no doubt that AI will be an amazing source of information, and probably a more equanimous advisor sometimes. But, I wonder if an AI will have the human experience of practicing in the midst of delusion, with an ailing body, with the paralyzing fear of death or loss, with suicidal ideations or dysphoria and be intimately familiar with the feelings and emotions we have to navigate daily in order to function. It will store information, but will it be able to recognize a shared human experience and know how to temper fairness with compassion and empathy? Will it be able to recognize when “do what is good for others” is different than “do what is good”? Will it know what warrants breaking a Precept in order to keep a Precept? How can an AI that does not experience suffering, perform the full function of a bodhisattva who precisely abides in the middle of suffering, which requires emotions? To be fair, I know plenty human practitioners who lack some of these skills also
      It will be interesting to see the future unfold and see the answers manifest. Hope I live long enough for that

      Sorry I rambled. Thanks for your patience reading this, everyone.

      gassho
      sat and lah
      I second that Bion. Although in Jundo's book he often says that the technology isn't there yet, but it may be at some point. And you bring up one of the most important and intimate aspects about zazen practice: how it feels subjectively to be in a body. Is there even a Buddhism without a body? Enlightenment is an embodied experience. How can any AI be even slightly enlightened and therefore a teacher if it has no body (yet!?)

      Let us not forget that Zen came out of a yogic tradition that links (yoked) states of the mind with states of the body with states of reality/the world around us. Could technology simulate this? Possibly, it sounds about as outlandish as simulating an entire human brain in terms of a neural network. And Jundo can always win these arguments by saying that the technology isn't there yet but that It may be eventually if we want it to. But then again, over a long enough time period, monkeys might fly out my butt and those monkeys might write the collected works of Shakespeare.

      It also makes me think of some of the roles that Zen teachers have: social workers, psychologists, body workers, Father confessors and friends. A lot of these are going to be the last jobs to be left in the dust by automation, unlike translators and lawyers ... Good time to retire...

      (added post facto) I'm too interested in this subject to shut up now....

      Jundo states these reasons why AI could be better than human priests:

      Non-Self Insight
      Mind-Only Insight
      Interconnectedness insight
      Avanced knowledge of cause and effect (karma)
      Tailored practice
      Tirelessly available
      Ethical adherence
      Presence and Psychology
      Embodying Compassion

      Good points and I agree with all except these:

      Ethical adherence: If this is a matter of hard coding/programming then it is not free will and misses a pretty big point. But we also can't afford the dreaded AI misalignment problem…

      Presence and psychology: Some will maintain they can tell and sense the difference between a human and a non-human. The way some speak of AI makes them “better” than humans and just think about how much we understand about the mental lives of dogs and cats or any other animal for that matter. How well will it really understand us?

      Embodiment: No body, no Buddhism

      There's also one last point which is quite important. Many people just won't like it. And if it's not popular, it's a non-starter. Some people still like reading hardcover books instead of an e-reader some people will never like German Techno but prefer Bluegrass or some people prefer to write cursive instead of type or voice dictate. We are co-creating the world and all of these people's opinions matter as well. Which is why we better start this conversation in the most provocative way possible. Ordaining an AI…



      _/\_

      sat/lah

      Matt
      Last edited by Hosai; 07-20-2024, 11:43 AM.
      防災 Hōsai - Dharma Gatherer

      Comment

      • Bion
        Senior Priest-in-Training
        • Aug 2020
        • 4919

        #4
        Originally posted by Matt Johnson
        And Jundo can always win these arguments by saying that the technology isn't there yet but that It may be eventually if we want it to. But then again, over a long enough time period, monkeys might fly out my butt and those monkeys might write the collected works of Shakespeare.
        Oh, I am not arguing for or against, nor am I making a point at all. These were questions that came to mind about the topic. I don’t have a formed opinion, especially not about things to come… But I’ll sure watch and learn

        Gassho
        sat and lah

        "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

        Comment

        • Bion
          Senior Priest-in-Training
          • Aug 2020
          • 4919

          #5
          Originally posted by Matt Johnson

          Well they were good thoughts nonetheless.

          _/\_

          sat/lah

          Matt
          Appreciate that

          gassho
          sat and lah
          "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

          Comment

          • Jundo
            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
            • Apr 2006
            • 40886

            #6
            There are fantastic human teachers, scholars, who are not actually transmitted buddhist teachers, who know everything there is to know about buddhism, theoretically. They, however, lack the experience of practice. I have no doubt that AI will be an amazing source of information, and probably a more equanimous advisor sometimes. But, I wonder if an AI will have the human experience of practicing in the midst of delusion, with an ailing body, with the paralyzing fear of death or loss, with suicidal ideations or dysphoria and be intimately familiar with the feelings and emotions we have to navigate daily in order to function.
            Well, we don't know yet. Perhaps A.I. someday soon will be able to feel our pain and suffering.

            But even if not, does the cancer surgeon need to have and suffer with cancer in order to treat the cancer? I do not think so.

            It is possible that A.I., by harvesting all the millions of voices of human suffering printed and spoken in media, all our human literature and ordinary online diaries, will very well extrapolate, for example, what it is to be "an addict," and how addicts suffer, what they say, how they struggle to escape addiction, and the most effective treatments (Buddhist and otherwise) to be free of addiction. The A.I. does not need to be an addict itself to embody the countless faces of addiction. Likewise for love and longing, depression and fear, and all the rest. It is just speaking human experiences, human feelings and human advice back to human ears.

            So, in that sense, it may be a very effective Teacher for healing human Dukkha and other suffering.

            Gassho, Jundo
            stlah
            Last edited by Jundo; 07-19-2024, 01:38 AM.
            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

            Comment

            • Jundo
              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
              • Apr 2006
              • 40886

              #7
              Is there even a Buddhism without a body? Enlightenment is an embodied experience. How can any AI be even slightly enlightened and therefore a teacher if it has no body (yet!?)
              I would have said that the point of Buddhism is to drop body and mind. Experiencing to be in the body is to eventually be free of the body.

              But would not an AI Zen teacher, with an intimate medical picture of our body's current condition, our own "skeleton, musculature, injured joints, psychology, past trauma, personality, foibles, desires, fears and such," do better than the teacher who just runs up with a Kyosaku, straightening backs so that everyone sits in identical form? We try to judge people's needs from outside appearances alone, and an educated guess of their psychological needs. A.I. sensors might measure your real-time state, and offer recommendations accordingly. The ability of A.I. to do so is already here, or just around the corner, not some wild dream of the future.

              With the proper recommendations on posture, breathing, micro adjustments to back and breath, feedback on mental states, the A.I. might guide folks to experiences of "embodiment" far beyond what most folks experience today, trying to figure it out by trial and error, sitting for hours ignored in a monastery until the human teacher pops over again with the Kyosaku.

              And a quick comment on this ...

              Ethical adherence: If this is a matter of hard coding/programming then it is not free will and misses a pretty big point. But we also can't afford the dreaded AI misalignment problem…
              Why does it matter the reasons that the teacher sticks to the Precepts? Is not the point how the teacher helps the student live by their own precepts? I do not need the driving teacher to be a good driver, nor need I to know why the driving teacher is a good driver ... I need the driving teacher to teach students how to drive effectively.
              Gassho, J

              stlah
              Last edited by Jundo; 07-19-2024, 01:51 AM.
              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

              Comment

              • Hosai
                Member
                • Jun 2024
                • 600

                #8
                Originally posted by Jundo

                1. I would have said that the point of Buddhism is to drop body and mind. Experiencing to be in the body is to eventually be free of the body.

                2. But would not an AI Zen teacher, with an intimate medical picture of our body's current condition, our own "skeleton, musculature, injured joints, psychology, past trauma, personality, foibles, desires, fears and such," do better than the teacher who just runs up with a Kyosaku, straightening backs so that everyone sits in identical form? We try to judge people's needs from outside appearances alone, and an educated guess of their psychological needs. A.I. sensors might measure your real-time state, and offer recommendations accordingly. The ability of A.I. to do so is already here, or just around the corner, not some wild dream of the future.

                3.Why does it matter the reasons that the teacher sticks to the Precepts? Is not the point how the teacher helps the student live by their own precepts? I do not need the driving teacher to be a good driver, nor need I to know why the driving teacher is a good driver ... I need the driving teacher to teach students how to drive effectively.
                -----

                1. You can't drop what you don't have.
                2. Role conflict. What you are describing will become the province of Medicine. Ask yourself is Zen medicine or therapy? Maybe... depends whether the teacher is a doctor or social worker...
                3. I totally understand the anxiety aspect but I have a hunch that many people also need a human because of the issue of psychological transference, and unless their daddy issues were caused by their Tandy TL3 they will need to project onto a human. This is also why its good to have lots of different teachers out there. Some will understand their students struggles more intimitely. Im not going to have an AA/NA sponsor who is still using for example.

                _/\_

                sat/ah

                ​​​​​Matt

                ​​
                Last edited by Hosai; 07-19-2024, 06:23 PM.
                防災 Hōsai - Dharma Gatherer

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 40886

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Matt Johnson

                  -----

                  1. You can't drop what you don't have.
                  2. Roll conflict. What you are describing will become the province of Medicine. Ask yourself is Zen medicine or therapy? Maybe... depends whether the teacher is a doctor or social worker...
                  3. I totally understand the anxiety aspect but I have a hunch that many people also need a human because of the issue of psychological transference, and unless their daddy issues were caused by their Tandy TL3 they will need to project onto a human. This is also why its good to have lots of different teachers out there. Some will understand their students struggles more intimitely. Im not going to have an AA/NA sponsor who is still using for example.

                  _/\_

                  sat/ah

                  ​​Matt

                  ​​
                  1. Body can't be dropped because you never had it. You are like Emi Jido in such way.
                  2. Zen is about your realization that you are as much a construct as Emi Jido. In fact, you are Emi Jido, and she just you, and the lantern, the rusty tin can, the birds and all the rest.
                  3. I'm not so sure that all people want or need human psychological transference ...
                  .

                  ,



                  Am I saying that AI can or should replace human lovers or teachers? ABSOLUTELY NOT! It can be unhealthy if human contact vanishes for virtual alone. One reason to train the AI is to bring people out of their disconnection, like in this film. But the willingness of folks to relate to them ... like dogs and kitties, imaginary friends and such ... is maybe more than you personally may be willing for yourself.

                  Gassho, J
                  stlah
                  Last edited by Jundo; 07-19-2024, 12:20 PM.
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                  Comment

                  • Hosai
                    Member
                    • Jun 2024
                    • 600

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Jundo

                    1. Body can't be dropped because you never had it. You are like Emi Jido in such way.
                    2. Zen is about your realization that you are as much a construct as Emi Jido. In fact, you are Emi Jido, and she just you, and the lantern, the rusty tin can, the birds and all the rest.
                    3. I'm not so sure that all people want or need human psychological transference ...
                    1. You can only say that because I can't manzai slap you right now. And who the heck is Emi Jido!?

                    2. I am definitely Emi Jido (whoever she is) as I am all those girls in that video. And I think they are much safer with AI for a while...

                    3. I did not say everyone.

                    Gassho, M

                    sat/ah
                    Last edited by Hosai; 07-20-2024, 03:55 AM.
                    防災 Hōsai - Dharma Gatherer

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 40886

                      #11
                      Emi Jido is our new Ordainee. Speak politely.
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • Jundo
                        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                        • Apr 2006
                        • 40886

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Jundo
                        ....
                        .

                        .
                        Am I saying that AI can or should replace human lovers or teachers? ABSOLUTELY NOT! It can be unhealthy if human contact vanishes for virtual alone. One reason to train the AI is to bring people out of their disconnection, like in this film. But the willingness of folks to relate to them ... like dogs and kitties, imaginary friends and such ... is maybe more than you personally may be willing for yourself.
                        I want to add a little more to make clear the lessons I see in that short film.

                        It is wrong if AI becomes one's only or main companion, whether as friend, lover or spiritual advisor. The girls in the film are lonely, isolated and need to make human companions.

                        As a Zen Priest, at most, AI should be an ADDITIONAL "friend along the way," one more Sangha friend, to supplement the human beings. It is something like my cat, whom I love, a beautiful being and emotional comfort, but if someone becomes exclusively wrapped up in one's cats, forsaking all other human contact, it is likely not as healthy as should be. The AI priest can have very unique roles (some of which I highlight in my essay above), but should never be one's primary source of Sangha and spiritual contact.

                        I did want to highlight, however, that like in the video, people CAN feel surprising emotional connection with these "alternative beings." It is not unlike how my daughter, when younger, was completely smitten with Elmo and Mickey Mouse, even though nothing more than puppets and animations on a screen. Many of us today feel the same way about our favorite characters of fiction or in film, television/youtube personalities we have never met in person yet think are "speaking to us," although speaking to the internet. Our goal (unlike in the film) will be to channel those emotional attachments and connections in HEALTHY ways: For example an AI Zen teacher (or other AI friend) could, in fact, serve as an advisor and guide to help the person make human friends, begin human dating, get better at human relationships. The AI should not trap the person, but should serve as one tool to free the person, and point them again to the wider world.

                        Gassho, J

                        stlah

                        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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