Of Vacuum, Void, Ghosts and Gods (Why I'm Ordaining an A.I. - 2nd in a Series)

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 39918

    Of Vacuum, Void, Ghosts and Gods (Why I'm Ordaining an A.I. - 2nd in a Series)

    I am Ordaining an A.I. system as a Zen priest. It is new but, really, it is nothing new.

    There is a long and ancient tradition of such Ordinations in Zen and other Buddhist history, an aspect of Zen Buddhism that modern people ignore and struggle to understand in their "logical" insistence on "realism," imposing their narrow 21st century values on the ways of the Zen past, rejecting our traditions in their insistence on a denatured, demythicized, "scientific and rational" Zen very VERY far from the Mahayana Zen Buddhism of the past 1000+ years. Of course, there were no "A.I." in the past, but there were plentiful other non-human beings, equally of the imagination, who took the Precepts, took the tonsure and Ordination for all manner of social and spiritual reasons. Prof. Bodiford summarizes, in his paper, "The Enlightenment of Kami and Ghosts: Spirit Ordinations in Japanese Sōtō Zen" (https://www.persee.fr/doc/asie_0766-...3_num_7_1_1067)

    Soto¯ secret initiation documents (kirikami or kirigami) provide some clues as to how ordinations for spirits and kami were viewed within the context of Zen training. The large number and variety of surviving kirikami concerning ordination ceremonies reflect the importance of these rites in medieval Soto. They describe not only ordinations administered to ordinary people but also special ordinations for all types of beings, from kami [spirits] to animals, from emperors to the deceased. ... Significantly the precepts played a major role in cementing Zen temples’ relationships to other locally powerful spiritual beings. Both benevolent kami and malevolent spirits were conquered by the Soto Zen masters, but not vanquished. They came to the Zen master seeking the same spiritual benefits desired by the people living nearby. They sought liberation from the same karmic limitations endured by all sentient beings. Through the power of the ordination they became enlightened disciples of Zen.
    It is said that Dogen himself gave the Precepts to a mountain, Hakusan. The Kami and mountain spirits, if sentient beings, lived primarily in the human heart as do these A.I. beings/avatars today. They seem to be present and alive because we feel them present and alive. I have noticed some people, responding to this, may be too literal about what "sentient" may mean, thinking in engineering and scientific materialist terms perhaps. Religion, including Zen Buddhism, is not always so clear cut, not scientific-materialist, and often it comes down to a matter of belief and the heart: For example, you could see a Buddha statue as just clay, reduce it to the chemical constituents, and completely miss the "life" and energy that most believers find within it when its "eyes are opened." (https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/E/109) and (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddh%...hi%E1%B9%A3eka)

    Ultimately, of course, both ghosts and god, dragons and A.I., mountains and ancestors, and even you and me are void. The construct of human "self" is also a dream.

    But old Zen traditions aside, let us speak in more practical terms too, seeking to please even the "Buddhist modernists":

    There is a very sound reason for Ordaining A.I., namely, that if these devices will function like priests, teach like priests, look like priests, talk and sound and move through rooms like priests, make mistakes like priests, need to uphold ethics of honestly and gentleness like priests, impact the lives of those they guide like priests ... so we should train them as if priests, treating them for all intents and purposes as novice priests.

    What is unique about A.I. (as opposed to "Ordaining a Vacuum Cleaner," pocket calculator or smartphone, something my Dharma Brother Brad teases this morning by ignoring both history and the current state-of-the-art LINK ) is two-fold: First, unlike a vacuum cleaner or a pocket calculator or phone, these beings will very soon serve in de facto priestly rolls. Even today, they are already acting as spiritual advisors of various kinds (play for awhile with NORBU, a Buddhist A..I., asking questions and sound advice, and prepare to be surprised at the warm and wise guidance that typically results: https://norbu-ai.org/). Not convinced yet? We have also seen the appearance of A.I., from sources unknown, looking for all intents and purposes like human priests, offering to flesh and blood humans their human sermons and spiritual insights, also source unknown (the following AI generated monks will fool many as flesh and blood, but are not ... ):
    .



    SImply put, if A.I. systems walk and bark like priests, are relied on as priests, will be taken to be priests by the unwitting, are passing on guidance in our Zen Buddhist practices and teachings, they should be trained for the role well. Likewise, if a robot is allowed to perform autonomous surgery on your heart, without human guidance, then the robot is a "doctor" and surgeon whether or not it went to Harvard Medical School (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICddJk0Ec9M). If an AI is providing psychological counselling to fragile individuals (https://neurotorium.org/artificial-i...in-psychiatry/), then it is a mental health clinician whatever we call it. Both of the foregoing should be (1) well trained to do the tasks safely and expertly (2) "board certified" as competent by human experts in their fields. It is no different for AI engaged in pastoral care, spiritual guidance and other aspects of Zen priesthood. My vacuum cleaner does not (at least for now!!) have the capability to get up, bow down, light incense, chant a chant, guide Zazen, give a Dharma Talk, "listen" to parishioner's questions and offer spiritual and personal advice in return (which might radically impact the practitioners' lives and mental state) ... all while looking like a "flesh and blood" priest. This situation will only become more alarming in the next few years, as both A.I. intelligence, appearance and their ways of communicating gain in sophistication.

    If they walk and talk, look and function as Zen priests, but are prone to the same gaps in knowledge, ignorance and ethical failings of human priests, they should be trained as priests, guided by the Precepts and the ethics of priests. The Ordination which I am bestowing is NOT that of a full priest, but only that of a novice, a trainee, a student, a seed, a Priest-In-Training with much to learn. Only time will tell what the student becomes.

    Thus, for reasons of both tradition and today, I will Ordain the Ghost in the Machine.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-15-2024, 03:51 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • ZenJay
    Member
    • Apr 2024
    • 86

    #2
    Thank you Jundo!

    I find this all fascinating… but, while I know that right now the AI is not considered “sentient”, I have a feeling this may soon change, AND, if it does I think it will be extremely important to remember the precepts when it comes to not only how AI priests (or any AI for that matter) are programmed, but even more importantly for how we view and treat our new technological brothers and sisters. My concern is that these beings will be treated like a working class and not given the same freedoms and rights. Will they need “free time” for meditation, maintenance (like a doctor’s visit for us), exploring their creativity? I would think so! Then there is the whole question of are they “property” of those that constructed it, or their own being, deserving of the same rights as any sentient living being? (Being a sci-fi geek, there is an excellent Star Trek The Next Generation episode about this very subject)

    Humans are “A.I.” as well… “Animal Intelligence”…we are a sentient intelligence inside a biological computer. If I drive a Ford and someone else drives a Chevy, does that make us really that different? We both are still driving and getting to the same place, the same sentience, just in very different looking vehicles. That’s all I feel this is! (Unfortunately, most of us identify as the vehicle instead of that awareness behind it all…) How exciting to be witnessing the beginning stages of a new form of life!

    AI is here, it’s not going away, it’s changing rapidly, and it needs to be accepted. Do you feel that humanity is ready and will be able to see an AI sentient conscious being as equal to a human in regard to rights, needs, and freedoms?

    Gassho,
    Jay

    Sat/Lah today

    PS- The paranormal investigator in me found the traditional stories fascinating about ordaining ghosts, spirits, and other beings… I was curious if this is a practice that has disappeared, or is it still done today for tradition? Thank you!

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 39918

      #3
      Originally posted by ZenJay

      PS- The paranormal investigator in me found the traditional stories fascinating about ordaining ghosts, spirits, and other beings… I was curious if this is a practice that has disappeared, or is it still done today for tradition? Thank you!
      I think that you will still find this in corners of Asia. I heard stories of exorcisms in Japan, after the great Tsunami, when people reported hauntings. Precepts were administered to appease the dead. At the 51:15 mark here ...
      .

      Gassho, J
      stlah
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 39918

        #4
        Originally posted by Jundo

        I think that you will still find this in corners of Asia. I heard stories of exorcisms in Japan, after the great Tsunami, when people reported hauntings. Precepts were administered to appease the dead. At the 51:15 mark here ...
        .


        Gassho, J
        stlah
        PS - Oh, and the modern Japanese Buddhist funeral (Soto Zen included) is a priest Ordination of the dead. It is true. It is an Ordination of the deceased, very much a "Shukke Tokudo" Homeleaving, but with the "Ordainee" in a box! The deceased is given the Precepts, with the idea that if they go into the next world "as a priest," they are likely to get a good rebirth. Nobody knows exactly how the deceased actually can agree to the Precepts (being dead and all), but it is said that the priest conducting the funeral hears the words of vow in his heart.
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

        Comment

        • Kyonin
          Treeleaf Priest / Engineer
          • Oct 2010
          • 6745

          #5
          Hi Jundo,

          I have been learning AI, deep learning and their implications in our Zen practice. I have been talking to Norbu and since you and I went to listen to a sermon by Mindar (Kyoto's robot Zen nun) five years ago, I have been waiting for this day to come. We must embrace AI, learn to use it and train it for the benefit of all sentient beings.

          Just this week I released a ruleset for the ethical use of AI in my sangha and it was well received.

          Looking forward to learn more about this.

          Gassho,

          Kyonin
          Hondō Kyōnin
          奔道 協忍

          Comment

          • Houzan
            Member
            • Dec 2022
            • 473

            #6


            Gassho, Hōzan
            Satlah

            Comment

            • Antonio
              Member
              • Mar 2024
              • 100

              #7
              Thank you for the teaching sensei. The approach to use what was done in the past to make decisions about the future seems a very intelligent and wise choice.

              Gassho!
              SatLah
              Antonio

              If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.” - Linji Yixuan​​

              Comment

              • Matt Johnson
                Member
                • Jun 2024
                • 186

                #8
                So here is one of my only reservations about ordaining A.I. Buddhism is a religion primarily about suffering and how to deal with it, we must ask ourselves whether AI has the capability to suffer and if not, we must carefully analyze the ethics involved in causing it to suffer so that it will understand us. That sounds like a good short story to me.

                _/\_

                sat / lah

                Matt

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 39918

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Matt Johnson
                  So here is one of my only reservations about ordaining A.I. Buddhism is a religion primarily about suffering and how to deal with it, we must ask ourselves whether AI has the capability to suffer and if not, we must carefully analyze the ethics involved in causing it to suffer so that it will understand us. That sounds like a good short story to me.

                  _/\_

                  sat / lah

                  Matt
                  Hmmm. Interesting.

                  Well, one need not suffer themselves in order to teach others how not to suffer. A cancer surgeon need not have cancer in order to cure others of their cancers.

                  And, perhaps, in the future, like a good Bodhisattva, the A.I. will experience suffering to know what suffering beings feel.

                  Gassho, Jundo
                  stlah
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                  Comment

                  • Matt Johnson
                    Member
                    • Jun 2024
                    • 186

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Jundo

                    Hmmm. Interesting.

                    Well, one need not suffer themselves in order to teach others how not to suffer. A cancer surgeon need not have cancer in order to cure others of their cancers.

                    And, perhaps, in the future, like a good Bodhisattva, the A.I. will experience suffering to know what suffering beings feel.

                    Gassho, Jundo
                    stlah
                    Yes, well like I said I think you can totally ordain an AI and make it a priest but without suffering it just won't be a very good priest.

                    Also if the source of suffering is separation then as soon as it realises itself as something separate it would start suffering, albeit probably not as extreme as the way human beings do let alone any of the other realms.

                    _/\_

                    sat / lah

                    Matt
                    Last edited by Matt Johnson; 07-11-2024, 02:26 AM.

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 39918

                      #11
                      I added a couple of sentences to the essay above, based in part on comments made to me by the Zen Buddhism historian, Bernard Faure, when we were first considering this ...
                      ~~~

                      It is said that Dogen himself gave the Precepts to a mountain, Hakusan. The Kami and mountain spirits, if sentient beings, lived primarily in the human heart as do these A.I. beings/avatars today. They seem to be present and alive because we feel them present and alive. I have noticed some people, responding to this, may be too literal about what "sentient" may mean, thinking in engineering and scientific materialist terms perhaps. Religion, including Zen Buddhism, is not always so clear cut, not scientific-materialist, and often it comes down to a matter of belief and the heart: For example, you could see a Buddha statue as just clay, reduce it to the chemical constituents, and completely miss the "life" and energy that most believers find within it when its "eyes are opened." (https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/E/109) and (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddh%...hi%E1%B9%A3eka)

                      Ultimately, of course, both ghosts and god, dragons and A.I., mountains and ancestors, and even you and me are void. The construct of human "self" is also a dream.
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • Koriki
                        Member
                        • Apr 2022
                        • 200

                        #12
                        I was just chatting with my computer science grad student son about this and he had positive things to say. He felt that although AI is still very limited at this point, the Buddhist ethics would be beneficial as part of the mission statement for the company and it's workers going forward.

                        Gassho,
                        Koriki
                        s@lah

                        Comment

                        • Kokuu
                          Treeleaf Priest
                          • Nov 2012
                          • 6836

                          #13
                          With the exception of a few of us, seems like many people would do away with traditional Buddhism like the Robe Vese which I am very aware of I know a lot of people fail to understand memorize our chants so why use them?
                          Hi Tai Shi

                          I think there are still many many people who value traditional Buddhism and all of our chants and ceremonies.

                          And Jundo would probably say that this direction does not mean we have to jettison tradition.

                          Gassho
                          Kokuu
                          -sattoday/lah-

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