Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[Shokai]

Hi Drew;

It almost sounds as if you are seeing these clouds like the balloons in comics. This reminds me of a few months ago a lady in our Monday sitting group (she has been sitting Zazen for over thirty years) asked how one opens the hand of thought and lets the thoughts go because she thinks mostly in pictures and it takes some time for the images to dissipate. Well, I put the question out here on the forum and one of our members replied that for years he has been struggling with images of hand positions demonstrating various ways to play chords on a keyboard. It finally occurred to him that this was his egos way of catching his attention; being a pianist and practicing different voicings is a preoccupation with him and his ego recognized that. Once he caught on to this he no longer saw it as a problem and his brain stopped showing the hand positions. Nothing has power except what you give it (quote from a greek philosopher) There is no good Zazen and there is no bad Zazen. There is just YOUR Zazen. Shall we dance?

gassho, Shokai
stlah

P.s. can we see your avatar sometime soon?

[Jundo]

True beginners mind here.

History:
I have been sitting zazen twice a day for 30 minutes each session. I've been doing this for the last 14 days. I've also read "Beginners Mind" by Suzuki, "Why Buddhism is true" by Wright, "What is Zen" by Fisher and Moon, "The Circle of the Way" by O'Brian, and now reading "Taking the Path of Zen" by Aitken.

Question:
When I sit, the "clouds" that come into my mind are zen sayings and zen focused thoughts instead of being emotions or other issues in my life. Should I quit reading about zen until I asorb what's bouncing around and the zen clouds quite down?

Gassho, Drew

Hi Drew,

Welcome again, and Happy New This Moment!

When clouds of thought come, whether on Zen sayings or that you need to buy eggs or whatever, just let them drift by and away without engaging with them too much. Know the clarity, openness and light of the clear sky that shines between AND right through the clouds as they drift. Clouds come and clouds go, to be met with the same nonengagement and equanimity as anything else in the room where you sit, like a table in the corner or the sound of a car passing outside.

So, it is okay to keep reading and studying a bit (when off the sitting cushion, of course! )

By the way, those books you mention are all wonderful, but know that they each come from somewhat different approaches to Buddhism and/or Zen, like different chefs talking about how they make soup. Beginners Mind is a Soto Zen classic, and "What Is Zen" is also about at the top of my own list of books recommended for folks new to Soto Zen. But why Buddhism is true is a very stripped down psychological approach to vipassana and "mindfulness" meditation. "Taking the Path of Zen" is also excellent, but Aitken Roshi comes from a corner of Zen Buddhism that emphasizes Koan centered Zazen to attain Kensho experiences, and that comes through on some pages of the book. "Circle of Zen" is a wonderful history, but might be a lot of information for somebody so new to the Practice.

In any case ... keep sitting!

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[drew]

Jundo,

thank you. I did notice the different biases or basis in each book. I did find the walkthrough history in circle of Zen very interesting and also realized that I will need to read it again later to gain better insight. I forgot to mention that I have also listen all 22 of your intro videos, thanks for those as well.

I'm off to sit.

Gassho, drew

[Bokugan]

First off, wanted to say that the beginner talks are excellent! Thank you. They have been very helpful (...and I love how Yuriko comes in to steal the spot light from time to time ) I kind of like to go slow, so I'm only up to video 12 -- hence why I've been a little quiet.

Anyway, I do have a couple personal observations that I am curious about...

I'm not exactly brand new to the Zazen posture, but I am 100% self-taught. The Basic Postures and Mechanics of Sitting talk was very helpful. I have always found the Burmese sitting style the most comfortable.

When I sit (currently about 15 - 20 minutes a day, occasionally twice a day, and sometimes half hour sessions on weekends) I always start out feeling pretty balanced and relaxed. Sometimes, about midway in, it is as if my thigh muscles are flexing to help keep me balanced. I am using a zafu and my knees touch the floor, so its not that. It is almost like my thigh muscles are working to keep my core posture in alignment. I know this is probably hard without seeing my posture, but is this normal? It can be distracting sometimes, but I also thought maybe it is just something that will get better as I condition myself more to sitting? Or is this a sign that I might need to readjust my posture when I notice my thigh muscles doing this?

Gasho,
Ryan
Sat Today

[Jundo]

First off, wanted to say that the beginner talks are excellent! Thank you. They have been very helpful (...and I love how Yuriko comes in to steal the spot light from time to time ) I kind of like to go slow, so I'm only up to video 12 -- hence why I've been a little quiet.

Anyway, I do have a couple personal observations that I am curious about...

I'm not exactly brand new to the Zazen posture, but I am 100% self-taught. The Basic Postures and Mechanics of Sitting talk was very helpful. I have always found the Burmese sitting style the most comfortable.

When I sit (currently about 15 - 20 minutes a day, occasionally twice a day, and sometimes half hour sessions on weekends) I always start out feeling pretty balanced and relaxed. Sometimes, about midway in, it is as if my thigh muscles are flexing to help keep me balanced. I am using a zafu and my knees touch the floor, so its not that. It is almost like my thigh muscles are working to keep my core posture in alignment. I know this is probably hard without seeing my posture, but is this normal? It can be distracting sometimes, but I also thought maybe it is just something that will get better as I condition myself more to sitting? Or is this a sign that I might need to readjust my posture when I notice my thigh muscles doing this?

Gasho,
Ryan
Sat Today

Hi Ryan,

Is you Zafu perhaps rather tall, or are you sitting a bit far back on the Zafu? Your spine should be slightly in front of the center axle of the round Zafu, and the Zafu should wedge nicely to offer support. Like here:



This fellow is too far back ...



I am thinking that something like this is too high, and would also put strain to stay on board ...



There should be no such strain to stay in position. Experiment and report back.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tai Shi]

I have found that in the past year I’ve been asking more about actually Soto Zen practice. I started the book Genjokoan and this next year will continue reading. It is my hope to get into the Diamond Sutra, to review Red Pine on the Heart Sutra, not sure I got much initially and continue learning about history of Buddhism, specifically b differences between Theravada, Tibetan, and Mahayana.
Tai Shi
sat
Gassho


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[Tai Shi]

Wish to know more about Dogen. I’ve watched the film on Facebook, read a little more in How to Cook Your Life. Maybe read a short biography now. So MUCH reading!
Gassho
Tai Shi


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[Bokugan]

Hi Ryan,

Is you Zafu perhaps rather tall, or are you sitting a bit far back on the Zafu? Your spine should be slightly in front of the center axle of the round Zafu, and the Zafu should wedge nicely to offer support. Like here:



This fellow is too far back ...



I am thinking that something like this is too high, and would also put strain to stay on board ...



There should be no such strain to stay in position. Experiment and report back.

Gassho, J

STLah

Hi Jundo,

Thank you for the advice and visual references. Much appreciated!

I did some experimenting this morning with what you shared in mind and think I might be onto something now.

I was very careful to ensure I was sitting so my spine was slightly in front of the center of my zafu and still experienced what I described. However, I took a moment to examine my posture after my session, and think my thigh muscles flexing is a result of me pitching forward slightly as I sit. It was such a gradual shift that I didn't notice. My back was still straight, but I was leaning forward a bit from the waist.

My zafu looks similar in size and fullness to the one you use in your Beginners Series. Even so, I think it could be a little too high for me. Mine is stuffed with buckwheat hulls, and doesn't squish down much when I settle into it (gets pretty much daily use and I haven't noticed it breaking down much yet).

I'll keep experimenting and work to keep my posture more centered. I also think I would like to try removing a cup or so of the buckwheat hulls. It may not be wedging enough for proper support, and therefore partially responsible for me pitching forward like this as I sit.

Gassho,
Ryan

Sat Today

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo,

Thank you for the advice and visual references. Much appreciated!

I did some experimenting this morning with what you shared in mind and think I might be onto something now.

I was very careful to ensure I was sitting so my spine was slightly in front of the center of my zafu and still experienced what I described. However, I took a moment to examine my posture after my session, and think my thigh muscles flexing is a result of me pitching forward slightly as I sit. It was such a gradual shift that I didn't notice. My back was still straight, but I was leaning forward a bit from the waist.

My zafu looks similar in size and fullness to the one you use in your Beginners Series. Even so, I think it could be a little too high for me. Mine is stuffed with buckwheat hulls, and doesn't squish down much when I settle into it (gets pretty much daily use and I haven't noticed it breaking down much yet).

I'll keep experimenting and work to keep my posture more centered. I also think I would like to try removing a cup or so of the buckwheat hulls. It may not be wedging enough for proper support, and therefore partially responsible for me pitching forward like this as I sit.

Gassho,
Ryan

Sat Today

Yes, you are actually the best judge of posture. This book is highly recommended for finding the posture(s) for you (plural, because the body is actually a bit fluid in sitting).

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6913-Book-Recommendation-THE-POSTURE-OF-MEDITATION

However, I was just think to ask folks to post some pictures in another thread. You may want to do so so that I can take a look.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jishin]

Yes, you are actually the best judge of posture.

Prior to Treeleaf, about 7 years ago, I was able to sit one hour or more at a time without any pain. It was not till I joined Treeleaf and began reading and taking other folks advice on how to sit properly that I began to have pain and difficulty with sitting or kneeling for extended periods. Sitting is intuitive. Little instruction is needed. Attachment to “right sitting” or “posture” in my case has caused a lot of problems. I always do better when I ignore advice on how to sit and just sit.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jundo]

Prior to Treeleaf, about 7 years ago, I was able to sit one hour or more at a time without any pain. It was not till I joined Treeleaf and began reading and taking other folks advice on how to sit properly that I began to have pain and difficulty with sitting or kneeling for extended periods. Sitting is intuitive. Little instruction is needed. Attachment to “right sitting” or “posture” in my case has caused a lot of problems. I always do better when I ignore advice on how to sit and just sit.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Ya see, this place does have effects on people!

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

[emoji3]

[drew]

It had another effect too. At work, there is somebody that was thrown on our team during a re-org who irritates everybody. Strongly suspect narcissistic issues. Today there was an IM thread complaining about and disparaging that person. I started to type my own comment and then thought. "There is much suffering that causes him to act this way" I will feel compassion and will not say anything disparaging.


A small thing but a shift in thoughts and actions.

Gassho, drew
Sat

[Tai Shi]

Lately my Zazen has been mixed because of discomfort, not exactly the sensations I’m used to, I’ve been going without Lidocaine patches more often, so what I feel is more natural to my norm. Yet, I feel this may have nothing to do with how I feel during Shikantaza so maybe ignore sensation as best I can no matter the situation? Especially when sitting Zazen?
Tai Shi
sat
Gassho


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[Jundo]

Lately my Zazen has been mixed because of discomfort, not exactly the sensations I’m used to, I’ve been going without Lidocaine patches more often, so what I feel is more natural to my norm. Yet, I feel this may have nothing to do with how I feel during Shikantaza so maybe ignore sensation as best I can no matter the situation? Especially when sitting Zazen?
Tai Shi
sat
Gassho


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do not ignore the situation, but do as you can not to run toward the situation or become tangled in thoughts about it.

If you need (and it sounds like you may), sit focused on following the breath or counting the breath. If you need something stronger, I may even recommend a mantra (you can make your own, Tai Shi, that speaks to your heart and let me know. Perhaps something with your Christian faith would be fine.)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah