Anyone else struggle with the language of Zen Buddhism books?

[MalleableGirlParts]

Hi,

I don't know if this is just me, but I often struggle to glean understanding from many Zen Buddhism books. I love reading them, but I find that I connect with more "western-style" writing. Does anyone else experience this? Any thoughts on how to overcome this? I suppose it's similar to me attempting to read Victorian-era literature. I generally feel I need books and stories in a modern English style to appreciate.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just intellectually lazy. Maybe I need to slow down and digest more. I suppose I struggle with slowing down as well. I want to finish books. I want to accomplish readings... Either way, I'm still going to buy them.

I'm just talking.

[Shujin]

It depends, what books are you reading?

Gassho,
Shujin
St/lah

[Jundo]

Hi,

I don't know if this is just me, but I often struggle to glean understanding from many Zen Buddhism books. I love reading them, but I find that I connect with more "western-style" writing. Does anyone else experience this? Any thoughts on how to overcome this? I suppose it's similar to me attempting to read Victorian-era literature. I generally feel I need books and stories in a modern English style to appreciate.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just intellectually lazy. Maybe I need to slow down and digest more. I suppose I struggle with slowing down as well. I want to finish books. I want to accomplish readings... Either way, I'm still going to buy them.

I'm just talking.

Oh, me too! There are a few reasons, especially with the more ancient books.

First, Zen logic is not our ordinary logic. For example, in our common ways of seeing, a mountain is not a tea cup, both of which are not me or you. For Zen folks, seeking to experience the wholeness and interidentity of all things, the mountain is brewing and the tea cup rests majestically on the ground, while you exist as you and tea and mountain ... yet all that is empty of separate existence. Since our sense of disconnection, separation and friction in this world is our main source of suffering, that experience is meant to be the medicine. However, it is hard to convey in ordinary language, even if modern language.

So, old Zen folks turned to symbolic gestures, poetic references (from obscure Chinese poems), slang expressions and humor to express all that. Much is lost to modern western people. Imagine someone 1000 years from now trying to catch 21st century Lithuanian word puns and modern cultural references and slang like "Thomas the Tank Engine" or "Skibidi" or "Bling Bling." Something will be lost in translation.

Plus, it helps to have some understanding of the basic Buddhist, Mahayana and Zen "philosophy" and outlooks that the above is trying to convey. Dogen is a good example, where he is hard to read, but becomes a little (a little! ) easier when we understand the fundamental teachings, sutra passages and other stories that he is "jazz riffing" on with his wild style.

There is one more factor I sometimes mention, even with modern Japanese authors like Shunryu Suzuki, Uchiyama Roshi, Katagiri Roshi and others: Japanese essay style, and public speaking in that generation, tends to wander here, then wander over there, then toss in something totally unrelated, then heads to no clear destination. Books like "Zen Mind, Beginners Mind" tend to be in such style. There is a point being made, but it tends to wander a bit and be fuzzy.

So, what to do?

Well, you can come here, where I make the obscure into the clear, like above.

Also, on books, such as those on our reading list, if you have a problem with that, I would tend to choose books by modern teachers, especially the Western teachers, who tend to be more "straight" in their explaining.

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/treeleaf/the-beginner-s-place/1029-suggested-books-media-on-zen-practice

For the old stuff, take it more like listening to rap music or modern poetry: I kind get the point and the feel, even if it takes some practice and I don't understand every phrase.

You might enjoy diving into our upcoming reading of my book, Zen Master's Dance, about how to read Dogen. I am going to announce that we will be reading that in the Treeleaf "No Words Book Club" starting next week. Also in the Book Club, Kokuu's going through the Platform Sutra is a good way to learn about that old classic and the Buddhist, Mahayana and Zen teachings it expresses in its special ways.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[MalleableGirlParts]

It depends, what books are you reading?

Gassho,
Shujin
St/lah

Hi,

Well, I'm not reading any of that nature currently, but I have read "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind". I do love that book, but it can be a little hard to follow. After reading Jundo's answer to my post I can see that the more I become familiar with these concepts, the better I am able to get something out of that book or books like it. I am also (still) currently reading "Opening the Hand of Thought". I say still because I started months ago, but have been busy with school so I've read bits and pieces here and there. This is much more straight forward (to my Western mind) and it is an informative read.

I'm just talking and I imagine as I keep going forward, more and more things will make sense to this limited mind.

[MalleableGirlParts]

So, what to do?

Well, you can come here, where I make the obscure into the clear, like above.

Also, on books, such as those on our reading list, if you have a problem with that, I would tend to choose books by modern teachers, especially the Western teachers, who tend to be more "straight" in their explaining.

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/treeleaf/the-beginner-s-place/1029-suggested-books-media-on-zen-practice

For the old stuff, take it more like listening to rap music or modern poetry: I kind get the point and the feel, even if it takes some practice and I don't understand every phrase.

You might enjoy diving into our upcoming reading of my book, Zen Master's Dance, about how to read Dogen. I am going to announce that we will be reading that in the Treeleaf "No Words Book Club" starting next week. Also in the Book Club, Kokuu's going through the Platform Sutra is a good way to learn about that old classic and the Buddhist, Mahayana and Zen teachings it expresses in its special ways.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Hi,

Thanks! This makes sense. I needed to hear what should be obvious to me I guess.

I am trying to go through this reading list. I picked up "Opening the Hand of Thought" based on this suggestion. I also just ordered "What is Zen?" and "Zen Master's Dance". I'd love to participate in the book club. I've never done that before and I do love to read. It's a good time as I won't be back in school until September.

Thanks!!

[Jundo]

Opening the Hand of Thought" based on this suggestion. I also just ordered "What is Zen?" and "Zen Master's Dance".

Three of my top recommendations (even if I am a little biased on one of them!)

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[MalleableGirlParts]

Three of my top recommendations (even if I am a little biased on one of them!)

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Interestingly, as I was sitting at the table having just gotten home from work, I'm reading "Opening the Hand of Thought" and I had a moment of "enlightenment".

"... we must always aim at doing correct zazen, without being concerned with perceiving the mark as having been hit.
This seems like a strange contradiction. Generally, most people think that as long as there is an aim, it is only natural that there will be a target to hit: precisely because there is a target, we can take aim. However, if we know there isn't a target, why attempt to aim? This is the usual idea about give-and-take, ordinary calculating behavior. "

Just sit, right? I'm not sitting to " get something". There is no target, but I still do the process. I still do it as correctly as I can with no expectation. It's like hitting a forehand in tennis. I'm not hitting the forehand to win the point, I'm hitting the forehand to hit the forehand. The point may come, or it may not, but that's not the...uh...point.

And regarding this thread's question, maybe reading the book is just reading the book. Without the aim of getting something from it. Getting past the meandering, flexible story arcs and archaic terminology may just be a matter of aiming for no-target.

There's something big here....I love these moments.

[Steve Rossiter]

I have pretty heavy ADHD, (taking meds )so I do the same. The trick is to not get frustrated, and don't force it. If it's too rough to get, go to an easier book. If you find a book thats easier, read it a bunch of times. Than try the harder stuff again. To be honest, audio books really work for me, and Jundos' podcast The Zen of Everything is a treasure that is super easy and is chock full of good stuff.

Just my 2 cents, and humbly hope it helps.

Gassho, Sat LAH ❤️????♂️☮️????????

[Taigen]

Hi Jenn,
Just wanted to share a couple of thoughts that I hope will be helpful!

First, yes, Zen reading is hard. I went to school for religious studies and then theology, including studying Buddhism, and Zen writing is uniquely hard. The language can be archaic and convoluted and extremely metaphor laden, which my autistic brain has to take apart very slowly to pull meaning from.

Something Jundo has offered that helped me a lot was in a dharma talk about Dogen from a few years back. He compared Dogen to a jazz musician (which he does above as well) who is riffing on ideas. I've been (slowly) reading the Shobogenzo and many of the sections in there are transcribed talks, which I'm sure were edited, but it makes more sense to me to read them like someone is speaking them out loud, riffing on an idea, and isn't necessarily expecting you to pore over every word as much as soak it in and see what hits home for you. It helps give me permission to let lines go if I'm not gleaning meaning from them relatively quickly.

Another observation, every teacher has their own way of talking about the Dharma: their own unique metaphors, twists of language, understanding, etc.. I read a lot of author's books on "Zen 101" a few years ago, and felt I had to spend a lot of the book just figuring out how their version of talking about the Dharma cohered with everyone else's. When I started here one of the things I did was work my way back through a few years of Jundo's dharma talks in podcast form, to try to really get that sense if I was going to learn from this person, which was very valuable, at least for me. Also, recommendation, "Buddhism: Plain and Simple," by Steve Hagen, was, I thought, the best and easiest to grasp introduction to Zen out there, and proof that it doesn't have to be super-complicated, at least not at first.

In any case, don't feel bad, you're not intellectually lazy (your academic studies you spoke of elsewhere prove that well enough!), Zen writing is just really dense. I really identify with the need to finish books, as you mentioned. I've been trying to give myself better permission to not finish things that aren't proving valuable or interesting for me, but my school and achievement-wired brain doesn't like letting things go unfinished (even if they are really boring or just aren't good).

Hopefully this helps a little!
Gassho,
Taigen
SatLah

[Houzan]

Hi Jenn,
I feel the same way sometimes. Right now for instance I’m trying to understand Uji. I find it very difficult to comprehend and wrap my head around the concept and the fascicle. Certain parts feel like reading quicksand. I can reproduce explanations, but they don’t touch me yet. So I try to read with my heart instead. It’s a bit like zazen-reading And as mentioned above, sometimes I have to take a break and read a more straightforward dharma book.

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

[Jundo]

Hi Jenn,
I feel the same way sometimes. Right now for instance I’m trying to understand Uji. I find it very difficult to comprehend and wrap my head around the concept and the fascicle. Certain parts feel like reading quicksand. I can reproduce explanations, but they don’t touch me yet. So I try to read with my heart instead. It’s a bit like zazen-reading And as mentioned above, sometimes I have to take a break and read a more straightforward dharma book.

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

We cover Uji in my "Zen Master's Dance." All will become crystal clear ... or, at least, crystal clearer.

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/treeleaf/practices/beyond-words-letters-book-club/547636-starting-readings-from-my-book-zen-master-s-dance-in-our-no-words-book-club#post547636

Gassho, J
stlah

[Jundo]

First, yes, Zen reading is hard. I went to school for religious studies and then theology, including studying Buddhism, and Zen writing is uniquely hard. The language can be archaic and convoluted and extremely metaphor laden, which my autistic brain has to take apart very slowly to pull meaning from.

It is not just Zen. Today, I had the honor of reading a couple of Tai Shi's poems at his remembrance Zazenkai. I "feel" what he is saying sometimes, even if the words sometimes go past me. For example, T.S. wrote the following, part of his realization in Zazen ...

... The path of wisdom of teaching Of community, Then for life, then For honesty, then for tenderness All resurrected in morning dew, In the essence of water, of humility, Of Equanimity, come to sun rays Filling science, of knowledge, mini Wonderful, largeness, tiny study Matter, study beyond the atom, beyond Hydrogen, beyond Helium, beyond, Axis of matter, energy, liquid, solid, State electron, ever looking beyond What we give to reality, speed, motion Individual beings, the essence of reality, Reality caught in a reflex of time, of notion Broken chain of being, of wonder, how To move in solid gas, liquefy each sub-atomic Particle, sand castle in billions, of billions In divisible, cutting, wonder, wonder Of wonder, motion through time, energy,
Gone into universal suns, each infinitesimal, Sight, rods, cones, retina, humanity Largely relativity, time, and solid motion-- This is our visible galaxy, galaxies infinite, Stop the music, morning, noon, evening, Night, morning, back to the wonder of the infinite.



I feel that I know just what he is saying about all reality and the infinite in Zazen, even if I hard to nail it down here and there.

Or this Eminem song (I had to clean it up a little) ...
.

His soul's escapin' through this hole that is gapin'
This world is mine for the takin', make me king
As we move toward a new world order
A normal life is borin', but superstardom's
Close to postmortem, it only grows harder
Homie grows hotter, he blows, it's all over
These h**s is all on him, coast-to-coast shows
He's known as the Globetrotter, lonely roads
God only knows he's grown farther from home, he's no father
He goes home and barely knows his own daughter
But hold your nose, 'cause here goes the cold water
These h**s don't want him no more, he's cold product
They moved on to the next schmoe who flows
He nose-dove and sold nada, and so the soap opera
Is told, it unfolds, I suppose it's old, partner
But the beat goes on
Da-da-dom, da-dom, dah-dah, dah-dah

Another observation, every teacher has their own way of talking about the Dharma: their own unique metaphors, twists of language, understanding, etc.. I read a lot of author's books on "Zen 101" a few years ago, and felt I had to spend a lot of the book just figuring out how their version of talking about the Dharma cohered with everyone else's.

This is also true, and folks often expect all Zen books to be saying the exact same thing. Some may be by Rinzai masters or mixed Soto-Rinzai folks emphasizing Kensho and Koan Introspection Zazen, while even Soto teachers have their own approaches. It is something like expecting all musicians who pick up a guitar to play exactly the same, whether a folks singer or heavy metal guy or a jazz person. It is the same universe, strung the same, with the same notes and keys ... but their are different approaches.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Houzan]

We cover Uji in my "Zen Master's Dance." All will become crystal clear ... or, at least, crystal clearer.

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/treeleaf/practices/beyond-words-letters-book-club/547636-starting-readings-from-my-book-zen-master-s-dance-in-our-no-words-book-club#post547636

Gassho, J
stlah

Reading it now already, in parallel with Uchiyama’s commentary. Hoping it will slowly seep in. But yes, looking forward!

Gassho, Hōzan
Satlah