Zen Sports: Here it is, your moment of flow

[Onrin]

Others have discussed the in the moment aspect of martial arts, which I think can apply to just about any activity, and "flow" is another related concept. One I associate with so-called gravity sports, where the sensation of carving, creating and feeling g-force produces a satisfying in the moment feeling.

In any case I thought this short article captures the non-goal goal of doing such activities. Different from zen, yet included in zen perhaps. And maybe related is why so many mountain bikers, surfers, skiers, snowboarders, climbers etc... and also zen people are active in environmental/social causes.

"And I think this is the core value of Mihaly’s optimal experiences: Like a perfect bike ride, humanity’s health depends on its individuals existing in the here and now. Not clinging to the past, not hoping for some future outcome, not pointing it straight and hoping for the best, but flowing continuously with each moment."

https://www.patagonia.com/stories/moments-of-flow/story-103278.html?

Gassho,
Chris

[Ryumon]

Csikszentmihalyi's Flow is a really interesting book. It got some attention when it was first released - I read it back then - but it seems to lurk just outside of the usual mindfulness channels. I haven't re-read it in a long time, but I recall that it explains a lot that fits with Dogen's idea of time.

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

[Doshin]

Enjoyed the read.

Doshin
St

[Onrin]

Csikszentmihalyi's Flow is a really interesting book. It got some attention when it was first released - I read it back then - but it seems to lurk just outside of the usual mindfulness channels. I haven't re-read it in a long time, but I recall that it explains a lot that fits with Dogen's idea of time.

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

Interesting thought regarding time. It's been quite a while since I've read Flow as well, and at the time I had not even heard of Dogen so perhaps it's time to revisit his work. Relatedly, at a conference many years ago the sports psychologist Dr. Michael Gervais, who works with Red Bull "extreme" athletes, and now the Seattle Seahawks gave a talk that touched on the flow concept and mindset states he works to assist athletes with, and after the talk when I asked him what informs his work outside psychology he told me Zen is also a big influence.
Gassho,
Chris

[Shoki]

"I cease to be aware of myself as something separate from what I am doing." While sitting zazen, even when my mind is pretty settled, I sometimes still feel like there's a guy here doing this, which can be a bit of an obstacle. When the guy is not there, it's just more true.

Gassho
STlah
Shoki

[Jundo]

I would like to drop in my take on "Flow" and Zen practice, if I might.

"Flow" experiences are vital to Zen practice, but far from all that is vital to Zen practice.

Some folks even overvalue flow states, as if the whole point of Zen practice and "enlightenment" is to finally be in some kind of perpetual flow state, 24/7, all one's waking life. Personally, I do not believe so. I even think that it would be a rather narrow life because, while flow states are to be savored in many activities (e.g., mountain biking, playing the guitar, as a surgeon in the operating room, cleaning and cooking, dancing, etc. etc.), not all of life need or should be in a flow state. It is something like saying that ice cream is tasty and makes life wonderful, but I do not want to eat ice cream all the time! I think of "flow" as like a tool on life's toolbelt that I might want to pull out and learn to use at appropriate times, before putting it back on the belt.

Now, to emphasize, flow states are also cherished and important in Zen: Flow states provide a vital lesson of "being in the flow," flowing of the mind and body with outside circumstances in which there is great harmony, and the tensions and frictions of inside and out soften or drop away. This is why such states are cherished in Zen, and many of our practices ... from Oryoki eating ritual, to floor sweeping, to chanting in intricate ceremonies ... are seemingly designed to induce some form of mesmerized or flow experiences. They are wonderful! Zazen too is a "non-moving" flow that can also induce flow experiences. I had one yesterday when learning a new guitar strumming riff as a beginner. They are wonderful, and I see nothing wrong at all in learning to induce such states (so long as, like any pleasurable state, one does not cling or get "hooked" on such states to the detriment of the rest of life).

However, I like to say that the real lesson of Shikantaza is not really about attaining "flow" (although nice when it happens). We are more about radical equanimity, which is an equanimity that flows along with both times of flow and times of no flow. One might call it the great "Big F" Flow of the universe that sweeps in and Flows as both times when human beings feel "flow" and times when human beings feel obstructed or the very opposite of "flow" (little "f"). I compare it to some awareness that the sun is still shining in the boundless, open, unobstructed sky even when that sky is hidden by the clouds. We don't all want to live in San Diego where the sky is blue and cloudless all day, for that is a bit dull (sorry, Geika, who lives there ). In fact, most of us live in places where the sun is not always shining. Rather, we can come to appreciate that the clear days are clear, rainy days just rainy, snowy days are snowy, but even the clouds and snow ARE the sky!

Both flow and flowless are the FLOW!



Something like that.

Sorry to run long ... but I got into the writing flow!

Gassho, J

STLah

[Amelia]

I can attest that we have our fair share of cloudy days if anyone is still interested in moving here!


... although today was 70 degrees F so maybe I am to acclimated lol

Gassho
Sat, lah

[Shokai]

Aw, I'm crushed. Somewhere i heard "it never rains in sunny California". Next you'll be saying Santa Claus doesn't exist; and then where would I go for solace

合掌
stlah

[Jundo]

https://youtu.be/ZXkk65PdKyM

Actually, rather a good Zen and Dukkha lesson there ...

Oh, and can't forget Mama Cass Roshi ...

https://youtu.be/aQ53_yJ7tKw

[Shokai]

Nice interlude; now I remember where I heard that
Yay, we're on a roll;

合掌
stlah

[Shokai]

A Karaoke roll that is:

合掌
stlah

[Shokai]

That last post had an error:

stlah

[Jundo]

Okay, enough with the Golden Oldies ... I am getting earworm songs in my head rather than "flow"

Gassho, J

STLah

[Onrin]

Thank you for your thoughts Jundo.
One of the primary reasons I became interested in this zen practice is through reading Shunryu first, which lead me to Warner, in which he quotes Dogen discussing not chasing satori, the concept of equanimity etc... and it struck me as the right thing.
Now I'm thinking that may have to do in part with a large number of clients and friends around me in Oregon at the time who structured their entire lives on chasing the flow, stoke, what have you, whether on bike, running, rock climbing etc... There were businesses in town that did 6 figure customizing of Sprinter vans that they would spend every weekend and holiday in driving halfway across the country to get the best snow or rock.
I always thought this was a bit off, and kind of missing the point, when we had great trails and mountains right there, but then again some found they didn't get the same flow on the same ol' boring local places.

My strategy was to suck at all of those activities enough so that I was satisfied with my flow taster on the boring local trails. And then I never had to buy the Sprinter or need the new $10k mountain bike every year. However I am just as bad at shikantaza too, but take solace in Sawaki's words that it's good for nothing anyway.

I suppose I shall continue to be fine with the flow of sucking
Sorry to run long.
Gassho
Sat
Chris

[CS]

From a martial arts perspective (I've trained in martial arts since I was 9, and I'm now 48):

When I trained in traditional karate-do, and when I still do my katas, or practice the "basics", the "Zen" aspect (if you will) of it involved attention and constant mindfulness of your training form. No flow state was needed (or WANTED for that matter). However, when "kumite" (sparring) was involved, it was a different matter. My sensei wanted us to enter "mushin" (no-mind) and to "fight without fighting" and to "think without thinking" (his words). This was obviously a deep "flow" state that was required in order to achieve what my sensei wanted. But this "mushin" was only attained through practicing in a very controlled, VERY mindful way when not "doing" kumite. We were never encouraged to enter mushin/flow as a constant of life.

If anything, what was expected out of traditional Karate-do practice was to attain a "Big F" flow state such as what Jundo so wisely and eruditely pointed out. One BIG F that embraced the constant mindfulness of the basics with the "flow" of kumite.