[Arts] Experience with Music

[Jundo]

Sometimes that vulgar music can be cathartic. Which is an emotional release or purification through activities that symbolically let people to express potentially harmful or negative emotions in a socially acceptable way.

we see this in lots of types of art, sports, or other controlled outlets that provide a way to process and release aggression, anger, or other emotions without actual (or way less) harm.

In these cases, emotions and drives are transformed into something beneficial or at least not as harmful to society.

Also has a little bit of the Vajrayana flavour to it.

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

I have mixed feelings on this, which I faced, for example, when my teenage Leon played some of those "shoot-em-up" video games. I forget which ones but, as far as I could see, they were soldiers in the field or zombies. Not something super-violent like Grand Theft Auto.

"Well, better on screen than in real life," I told myself. Likewise for viewing violence in movies. I don't know if it is "cathartic," or just reinforces the drive in us. Probably a bit of both. I would rather someone take out their anger on screen than go in and shoot up a school one day.

However, I think that someday we will need to be free of all desire for such things. My book, "Building the Future Buddha" says this ...
.

It is my hope, however, that modified, increased and re-focused drives within our psyches, all encouraging us toward greater gentleness, kindness, caring, etc., will cause us to create school curricula, family environments, media content and the rest which are also gentler, kinder, more peaceful and the rest, in much the same way that current human nature is reflected in today’s schools, families and media, and the modern problems we find there. If, for example, people come to internally feel heightened levels of intense physical disgust when witnessing scenes of bloody violence, and more powerful joy and pleasure when presented with moments of charity and cooperation, the values taught in schools, the atmosphere children experience in families, and the content of entertainment and news reports presented in the media will tend to emphasize the avoidance of violence, and the encouragement of charity and cooperation. Human values and social institutions are mutually formed. Each will influence, encourage and nurture the other.

It is hard to imagine, for example, movies celebrating shootings, beatings and battlefield explosions when the paying audience is left physically ill at the mere sight. Will there be many families in which children are beaten if potentially abusive parents are no longer mentally prone to raging anger, and instead, are sickened at the very thought? How many schools will there be where disciplinary issues interfere with daily study if the student body’s bodies are disposed to be gentler, more cooperative in nature, more focused and able to concentrate, and smarter? In fact, our theatres will be filled with tales of good deeds and humanitarian heroes, rather than violent scenes and war heroes, if the ticket buying public so demands, feeling the same level of pleasure in witnessing kittens saved from trees as now felt in witnessing gladiators battle to the death. It is merely a matter of neurologically rewiring what brings thrills and physical joy, or aversion and disgust.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Matt Johnson]

I have mixed feelings on this, which I faced, for example, when my teenage Leon played some of those "shoot-em-up" video games. I forget which ones but, as far as I could see, they were soldiers in the field or zombies. Not something super-violent like Grand Theft Auto.

"Well, better on screen than in real life," I told myself. Likewise for viewing violence in movies. I don't know if it is "cathartic," or just reinforces the drive in us. Probably a bit of both. I would rather someone take out their anger on screen than go in and shoot up a school one day.

However, I think that someday we will need to be free of all desire for such things. My book, "Building the Future Buddha" says this ...

I too have mixed feelings on this. In fact, this response is literally a mixed response. What we are talking about is harm reduction and if the choice is between war and a football game (or call of duty). Doing heroin in a safe injection site over contracting a disease or dying of an overdose. Watching porn over cheating on a loved one... I don't think you can even question whats right here...

This approach isn't saying doing the thing is good. It's saying it's better than doing the more harmful thing... but it's a stop Gap... eventually there's a reckoning with whatever underlies the behaviour whatever level of harm it's at.

For many the all or nothing approach will never work. So we must opt for a middle way... but if we keep choosing harm reduction over a long enough time span, in theory, things will continually get better. Slow and steady progress for the human race.

But I don't think we need make as much of a special effort technologically as suggested in your book. In fact, much of what you suggested was what you hoped for the future I actually see already occuring (albeit in a nascent form) in the present (and I'm pretty sure you alluded to that yourself).

Many of those things are being done already, maybe more gradually than you're suggesting. I actually think it's part of our collective story. A very long story of harm reduction. Long may it continue and may it be just fast enough.

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

I am generally with you on the first part. Yes, better football than war.

But we do life in a world of terrible bloody wars, weapons of mass destruction, violence to children, addictions, environmental destruction and 1000 other horrors. I don't think that we have 'all the time in the world' to save this world.

So, I will take technology, medicine, science and ANY other means to save us from ourselves.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Matt Johnson]

I am generally with you on the first part. Yes, better football than war.

But we do life in a world of terrible bloody wars, weapons of mass destruction, violence to children, addictions, environmental destruction and 1000 other horrors. I don't think that we have 'all the time in the world' to save this world.

So, I will take technology, medicine, science and ANY other means to save us from ourselves.

Sure that sounds good too, but as you also pointed out in your book, technology has many unintended consequences which in many cases can be worse than the thing that we are seeking to treat. This reminds me of iatrogenic disease where medical materialism and the push to do do do something for the suffering patient leads doctors to go beyond their evidence. Doing too much, giving too many drugs, too many tests and causing more illness and suffering.

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

Sure that sounds good too, but as you also pointed out in your book, technology has many unintended consequences which in many cases can be worse than the thing that we are seeking to treat. This reminds me of iatrogenic disease where medical materialism and the push to do do do something for the suffering patient leads doctors to go beyond their evidence. Doing too much, giving too many drugs, too many tests and causing more illness and suffering.

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

But you thus seem to say that our response should be that we use no medicine to cure the disease, forsake all medicine and technology that might actually save lives, rather than to use good medicine more wisely.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Matt Johnson]

But you thus seem to say that our response should be that we use no medicine to cure the disease, forsake all medicine and technology that might actually save lives, rather than to use good medicine more wisely.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

I would never say anything so "all or nothing"... Sometimes doing nothing is the best medicine. Sometimes healing comes in the form of chemotherapy drugs. Sometimes it's a vision of Avalokitasvara. Sometimes its a subtle attention placed on our chakras and nadis... And sometimes It's just letting it be and having it come into balance by itself. And it's this last one that I think we often miss and that doctors seem incapable of acknowledging. My sister and her husband are doctors, and I have quite a few acquaintances who are also doctors and they said that the pressure that they feel to do something is so extreme that they are often afraid that they are doing harm.

I asked my sister when was the last time she told the patient she doesn't know and left it at that. She said basically never.

An ancient traditional Chinese medicine saying is "the whole world is poison and the whole world is medicine."

So learning how to do nothing while seeming to help people would be a great skill. But also having a sense of what would be poison or medicine to each person.



_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Ester]

I share this sense of urgency regarding the state of the world.

I will read the book soo, but till then, I'm very curious, what are the technologies that according to Jundo's book can save us from ourselves?

Gassho,
Ester
Satlah

[Paco]

Hi everybody,

I hope it's ok to post my own thoughts and questions.

I love music and all kinds of it. I love the way it can alter my mood instantly. I suppose that having it affect your mood is something I should(?) be striving to avoid. But then I'm new to this practice and not so good at it.

The reason I wanted to post is to hear anybody's thoughts on different types of music. Do you avoid anything specifically on moral grounds or maybe because of how it makes you feel?

Is there such a thing in Zen where certain music isn't encouraged? I've certainly listened to my fair share of songs and albums that aren't generally fit for public consumption.

I will say that I do find myself avoiding or at least limiting certain music that I love because of how it makes me feel. I don't want to be agitated, especially driving. I've been choosing music that calms me and makes me smile.

But I do feel attachment (eek!) to important music to me. Music that takes me places and brings me those cherished memories I miss. I have a difficult time letting go of that, but also wonder if I even should. Is it really just a matter of perspective? If my interaction with the music is more in line with the experience of Zen practice does that make it ok?

Also, a tangentially related question: Do you listen to music while driving or cleaning or working? I do feel like it helps while doing those things, but then I'm not exactly present for either activity. What is everybody's feeling on this? I'm not necessarily a big fan of doing dishes, but listening to music or podcasts helps it become a more pleasurable experience.

Perhaps all of these issues will become moot points as I get further along...

Gasshō Sat Lah
Jenn

Hi Jenn,

Very interesting question. My two cents on Buddhism and music. I am/was a musician, arthritis has slowed me down and now I only really play with my son for fun.

I love all kinds of music and listen to music all the time. Jazz to me fits Buddhism well because its improvisational nature forces the player and the listener to a extent to be in the moment. There is no past or future in jazz in a sense, there is only the present, this chord or this note, now this chord or this note. There are also quite a few Buddhist jazz musicians, though the ones I know are in the Pure Land tradition, Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter come to mind.

This is just my opinion. I am only a lay practitioner and my experience is limited.

Gassho,
Paco
sat/lah

[Matt Johnson]

I enjoyed talking with the Jazz Bassist Gary Peacock when occasion permitted at ZMM. Wonder if you have heard of him?

https://youtu.be/K_YU16T6idA?si=px12sW0pzTc-iFRc

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Paco]

No, I have not heard of Gary Peacock, but I will check out his work. Thank you for the new to me music.

Gassho,
Paco
sat/lah