ARTS: Folk Music

[Seiko]

I suppose for music from Americans, the closest thing to the sort of English folk song that we know here in UK, is probably the old Appalachian songs or the genre we now call American Roots. For example, the Stanley brothers. I think Ralph and Carter Stanley began performing around 1946.

In Gassho
Seiko
stlah

[Seiko]

Yes please I'm not familiar with folk music; at least I don't think I am

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Hi Risho,

YouTube is a good place to start. Here are 5 of my favourites:
The Dubliners
The Chieftains
The Watersons
Barry Dransfield
Kathryn Tickell.

In Gassho
Seiko
stlah

[JimInBC]

I suppose for music from Americans, the closest thing to the sort of English folk song that we know here in UK, is probably the old Appalachian songs or the genre we now call American Roots. For example, the Stanley brothers. I think Ralph and Carter Stanley began performing around 1946.

In Gassho
Seiko
stlah

Thank you. That's a useful pointer.

I'm curious - would you consider early African-American blues folk music? In the early 20th century it starts to influence much American commercial music. But my understanding is the roots go back to the mid-1800s. Thanks for your thoughts.

Gassho,
Jim
stlah

[GrasshopperMan17]

As a Deadhead for more than 40 years, I welcome any mention of the band, but I'd not call songs they wrote folk music, in the strict definition of that term. Here's a list of a number of "folk" songs the Dead covered;

https://folkways.si.edu/roots-of-the-grateful-dead/music/playlist/smithsonian

I remember watching the film of Grapes of Wrath back when I was a teenager, and I was stunned to see Henry Fonda playing and singing Going Down the Road Feeling Bad. I hadn't realized it was that old.

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

Thank you for that reminder. Yes, the Grateful Dead covered a bunch of traditional folk songs, and put some staples in the folk revival as well, although i understand that in the strictest sense it can't really be called traditional folk. Still love the Dead and respect their contributions into the genre.

Respectful Gassho, John
ST/LAH

[Ryumon]

Can'o'worms...

When Dylan reached New York, and clashed with the hard-core folkies, there were almost wars between the purists and the others. Here's a definition of "folk music" from the Oxford Dictionary:

music that originates in traditional popular culture or that is written in such a style. Folk music is typically of unknown authorship and is transmitted orally from generation to generation.


That's how the Greenwich Village folkies thought of it, and any attempt to make "folk" music that didn't fit with that idea was considered anathema.

Since then, we've broadened the definition to include things like the Delta blues, which were written for non-commercial performance, at first, until the "race records" purveyors saw that there was a market for radio.

As Wikipedia points out:

The terms folk music, folk song, and folk dance are comparatively recent expressions. They are extensions of the term folklore, which was coined in 1846 by the English antiquarian William Thoms to describe "the traditions, customs, and superstitions of the uncultured classes"

While people in the UK tend to think of folk music as what Seiko said above, in the US it's a bit different. And in the 1950s, with the genrefication of music, and the rise of the LP, folk music became a label to put on anything from true performers of anonymous, tradition music, and groups like Peter, Paul, and Mary, who were put together by a record producer to perform "folk" tunes for the masses.

Stage performance of folk music only really began in the 1960s "folk revival".

In the UK, perhaps, but in the US, it was much earlier. You could probably go back to the 19th century to find folk music performances in vaudeville shows and other venues, and I'd bet that in the UK (about which I know less music history) it was probably similar. If anything, the "folk revival" was the monetization of folk music, and the attempt to create contemporary folk music, in the style of what was olde and anonymouse.

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

[Ryumon]

Oh, and to bring us back to zen, one could argue that honkyoku, the oldest, solo works for shakuhachi, is folk music. I don't know enough about Japanese music to know about other kinds, but I'm sure that there is plenty. However, I would think that court music - gagaku - was not folk music.

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

[Seiko]

We all have our own ideas of what we think the folk genre includes. It is interesting to hear so many points of view. Certainly my understanding is that for music to be considered as 'folk' it must be passed from musician to musician orally, without being written down. If you prefer a subdivision, my interests lie in *Traditional* folk, where others may prefer *Contemporary* folk. It is definitely a minefield, but good music is good music, however you classify it.

In Gassho
Seiko
stlah

[Seiko]

Thank you. That's a useful pointer.

I'm curious - would you consider early African-American blues folk music? In the early 20th century it starts to influence much American commercial music. But my understanding is the roots go back to the mid-1800s. Thanks for your thoughts.

Gassho,
Jim
stlah

Hello Jim,
My preferred definition is here https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...6-Introduction.
But it is by no means the only one!

In Gassho
Seiko
stlah

[Naiko]

I am eager to learn more about folk music. I am a beginning (very) mandolin player and hope to explore Irish and other folk music. Is Pentangle considered folk music (folk revival?)?
Gassho,
(Naiko) Krista
st

[Ryumon]

Funny, I was just reading a book about Bob Dylan in London, and I came across this, talking about folk music in the 1950s:

"Factions had started to appear, each holding strong opinions – not just about which songs were legitimate to sing, but the way in which they should be sung. Some decreed that all folk songs should be sung unaccompanied, frowning upon the use of musical instruments. Others considered that only songs from the British Isles were acceptable. The policy at the influential Singers’ Club, started by Ewan MacColl as the Ballad and Blues Club in 1953, was that songs should be from the singer’s own heritage or region of birth."


Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

[Kokuu]

Is Pentangle considered folk music (folk revival?)?

Hi Naiko

Pentangle were definitely part of the 60s/70s folk revival which included Fairport Convention, Martin Carthy and Steeleye Span among others. Although primarily folk, they also took influences from jazz and rock, but many of their songs, such as Sovay and Willy O'Winsbury are traditional folk pieces.

Two members of the band, John Renbourn and Bert Jansch, were incredible guitarists, both of folk and other genres.

As regards folk tunes for the mandolin, I really like these two resources and you can often find the tunes on You Tube to play along with or at least listen to:

Mandolin Tablature Library at the Mandolin Café
Mandolin Tab

The Irish reel The Star of Munster is a fun one to play! http://www.mandolintab.net/tabs.php?...nster&id=02255

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm_2F5vUWfs

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Kokuu]

Morrison's is a nice jig, too, and a little easier than The Star of Munster: https://www.mandolincafe.com/tab/morrisons.txt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jALk8JHtmmI

Btw, I am sure you know but for other folk, a jig is in 2/2 or 4/4 time. a reel is in 6/8. Basically, count the notes each time you tap your feet and if you are counting in threes, it is probably a reel, in fours it is a jig.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Seiko]

Funny, I was just reading a book about Bob Dylan in London, and I came across this, talking about folk music in the 1950s:

"Factions had started to appear, each holding strong opinions – not just about which songs were legitimate to sing, but the way in which they should be sung. Some decreed that all folk songs should be sung unaccompanied, frowning upon the use of musical instruments. Others considered that only songs from the British Isles were acceptable. The policy at the influential Singers’ Club, started by Ewan MacColl as the Ballad and Blues Club in 1953, was that songs should be from the singer’s own heritage or region of birth."


Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

Hi Ryumon,
If you use Instagram, take a look at my poor offerings. You'll see I am a traditionalist. But there's room for us all.

In Gassho
Seiko
stlah

[Naiko]

Hi Naiko

Pentangle were definitely part of the 60s/70s folk revival which included Fairport Convention, Martin Carthy and Steeleye Span among others. Although primarily folk, they also took influences from jazz and rock, but many of their songs, such as Sovay and Willy O'Winsbury are traditional folk pieces.

Two members of the band, John Renbourn and Bert Jansch, were incredible guitarists, both of folk and other genres.

As regards folk tunes for the mandolin, I really like these two resources and you can often find the tunes on You Tube to play along with or at least listen to:

Mandolin Tablature Library at the Mandolin Café
Mandolin Tab

The Irish reel The Star of Munster is a fun one to play! http://www.mandolintab.net/tabs.php?...nster&id=02255

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm_2F5vUWfs

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Thank you for the resources, Kokuu! That reel is lovely, and well beyond my current capabilities. Goals! I love this version of Pentagle’s Cruel Sister on the octave mandolin. (I do love a good murder song. It seems that tradition hopped the pond and is popular in Appalachian folk songs too.)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lUnnmmdmnTs

Gassho,
Naiko
st

[Kokuu]

Hi Naiko!

The Star of Munster was one of the tunes I started playing mandolin with and it is not as hard as it looks.

Love that mandola version of Cruel Sister! The extra octave makes for much softer accompaniment. I used to have a bouzouki which is the next octave down. Can you play it okay on the mandolin?

Murder songs are popular in folk, aren't they? I remember watching a film about Appalachian folk traditions (Songcatcher released in 2000) and recognised a few tunes that had come from England/Ireland/Scotland and given a bluegrass makeover!

Jim Moray did a modern version of the Cruel Sister/Two (Twa) Sisters a while back on his first album...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2A7_aq0NOE

Loreena McKennit also has a version of the same story/song called The Bonny Swans and it appears there are many more (also here and here)!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-