Zen (film 2009)

[Junsho]

Okay, there were a couple of cheezy scenes that I put down to the filmmaker's imagination, like the psychodelic animation used to show his moment of "Satori" ... he flies into the sky on an anime pink lotus flower. Hmmm.

I also think that this scene was a little psychedelic, but now Roshi Jundo , you made me curious, so a question to you:

If you were the filmmaker, how you would represent this moment? Snapping fingers maybe?

Gassho
SatLah

[Shoshin]

I think I possibly agree with you in the examples you give, I'll have to think about it ( thats my philosopher head talking),but perhaps we have to examine theses things on a case by case basis. Then maybe you and I might draw the line in the same place, we might not.
As fo Nansen cat it's a famous koan in "The Gateless
GATE" by Mumon case 14, Nansen cuts the cat in two.
You'll find it online.

Gassho
Ian

Ah
I'll check this koan. Thanks!

Gassho,
Ester
Sat lah

[Shoshin]

I also think that this scene was a little psychedelic, but now Roshi Jundo , you made me curious, so a question to you:

If you were the filmmaker, how you would represent this moment? Snapping fingers maybe?

Gassho
SatLah

Wow. Great question. I look forward for Jundo's answer.

Gassho,
Ester
Satlah

[Shoshin]

I watched the film and overall I enjoyed it very much.
I think that the editing is a bit too messy but the photography, the acting and the music are nice.
And, of course, the story. This is the best. It is inspiring and moving.

But I was shocked at something: why would Dogen make a woman spend the last few hours of the life of her baby running like crazy from one house to the other to teach her about impermanence when it can be taught later on? Why don't help her to treasure this last few hours and to spend then making her baby as comfortable as possible instead of waste them in emotional agony and terrible discomfort for the dying baby?

I really hope Dogen didn't really do this. Is it believed that he really did it?

Gassho,
Ester
Satlah

[IanSmith]

I believe this is a story/parable the director borrowed from an original story about the Buddha, the man.
Gassho.

[IanSmith]

I believe in the original the baby is already dead.
Gassho

[Shoshin]

I believe in the original the baby is already dead.
Gassho

Ah, yes. I remember a story about the Buddha, a woman and a son who is already dead.
I guess you are right and they just borrowed this story and they modified it for no apparent reason.

Gassho,
Ester
Satlah

[Bion]

I watched the film and overall I enjoyed it very much.
I think that the editing is a bit too messy but the photography, the acting and the music are nice.
And, of course, the story. This is the best. It is inspiring and moving.

But I was shocked at something: why would Dogen make a woman spend the last few hours of the life of her baby running like crazy from one house to the other to teach her about impermanence when it can be taught later on? Why don't help her to treasure this last few hours and to spend then making her baby as comfortable as possible instead of waste them in emotional agony and terrible discomfort for the dying baby?

I really hope Dogen didn't really do this. Is it believed that he really did it?

Gassho,
Ester
Satlah

That story is actually based off the story of Gotami, or Kisagotami, a woman whose child suddenly died, a child whose birth was what eventually had her accepted into the family of her husband. So, with the corpse of her child in her arms she rushed to Jeta grove, where the Buddha was teaching, asking for him to save her son. He told her to go get a very small quantity of mustard seeds from any house where no one had died. Towards evening she finally realized that not only she was stricken by the death of a loved one, but this was the common human fate and so her desperate door-to-door wandering provided the direct experience needed for her to understand impermanence as common to all.
Even if Dogen Zenji had done that seemingly cruel deed, of sending her in search of an impossible salvation, I believe it would've been a powerful teaching tool, not entirely lacking compassion. Orin might not have been able to realize on her own her son was beyond salvation, but an objective observer could, and they could also foresee the grieving coming afterwards and the suffering brought by loss and trying to understand/accept it. Sending her on that quest made it so that she fully spent all her energy in search of salvation for her child, holding him tight and close, all the while understanding how common loss and impermanence are. If anything, she was fully present with her child until the very last moment. That is just my take on it, though.

Gassho
sat lah

[Dainei]

Ah, but have you seen the movie "Bodhidharma: The Master of Zen - A Gripping Buddhist Film | Unveiling the Secrets of Enlightenment" ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbEQIiY_szM

LOTS of subtle koan related images and everyone was shaolin fighting!

Gassho,
Bill
Sat

[Shoshin]

That story is actually based off the story of Gotami, or Kisagotami, a woman whose child suddenly died, a child whose birth was what eventually had her accepted into the family of her husband. So, with the corpse of her child in her arms she rushed to Jeta grove, where the Buddha was teaching, asking for him to save her son. He told her to go get a very small quantity of mustard seeds from any house where no one had died. Towards evening she finally realized that not only she was stricken by the death of a loved one, but this was the common human fate and so her desperate door-to-door wandering provided the direct experience needed for her to understand impermanence as common to all.
Even if Dogen Zenji had done that seemingly cruel deed, of sending her in search of an impossible salvation, I believe it would've been a powerful teaching tool, not entirely lacking compassion. Orin might not have been able to realize on her own her son was beyond salvation, but an objective observer could, and they could also foresee the grieving coming afterwards and the suffering brought by loss and trying to understand/accept it. Sending her on that quest made it so that she fully spent all her energy in search of salvation for her child, holding him tight and close, all the while understanding how common loss and impermanence are. If anything, she was fully present with her child until the very last moment. That is just my take on it, though.

Gassho
sat lah

Thanks!
That's a beautiful way to see it
They say that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" for a reason.
Gassho,
Ester
Satlah

[Shoshin]

Ah, but have you seen the movie "Bodhidharma: The Master of Zen - A Gripping Buddhist Film | Unveiling the Secrets of Enlightenment" ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbEQIiY_szM

LOTS of subtle koan related images and everyone was shaolin fighting!

Gassho,
Bill
Sat

I'll watch it! I love Kung-fu films
Gassho,
Ester
Satlah

[Jundo]

Hi All,

Okay, there were a couple of cheezy scenes that I put down to the filmmaker's imagination, like the psychodelic animation used to show his moment of "Satori" ... he flies into the sky on an anime pink lotus flower. Hmmm.

I also think that this scene was a little psychedelic, but now Roshi Jundo , you made me curious, so a question to you:

If you were the filmmaker, how you would represent this moment? ...

I was down with the influenza for a few days, and in my feverish state ... i had this pass through my own fever dreams. Hmmmm. Well, I don't know that the event actually followed the "slipper slapping" incident. Dogen never actually connected the two in his own writings, and it seems that the story was made by later biographers' imagination. However, if I had to connect them ...

I might have had Dogen sitting Zazen quietly, not much happening. Rujing enters, scolding sleeping monks. The slap of the slipper ... shot changes to Dogen's POV, as a small ball of dust is moved onto his robe by the breeze from the waving slipper. Zoom in tighter and tighter into the dust ball, almost microscopic level now which, as we proceed forward, contains Dogen, then all sentient beings, and the world, then the cosmos, then we keep heading forward but also all reverses as we head deeper to the dust ball again ... All this happens in a moment. At the end, Dogen is sitting Zazen quietly all along.

At least, much more understated ... no floating pink lotus blossoms in the sky!

But if could do my own way ... Dogen is sitting Zazen, the dustball blows in a window across his robes, it blows away, he continues sitting ...

(But don't listen to me today ... I have a fever just below 38c )

As to the cat, it is unlikely that any cat was actually killed ... One of the most easily misunderstood of Koans, I feel ...

Nanchuan (Nansen) saw the monks of the eastern and western halls fighting over a cat. Seizing the cat, he told the monks: “If any of you can say a word of Zen, you will save the cat.” No one answered. Nanchuan cut the cat in two.

Here is how I take it: The "Sword of Wisdom" in Mahayana Buddhism actually makes the separate things of the world one when it "uncuts." It is the opposite of a worldly sword. The monks, in fighting over the cat, are the ones who had already mentally divided it.

There was unlikely to have been any literal killing celebrated by Buddhist priests who take a vow to avoid violence, not to mention all the Karmic ramifications. Instead, Nansen actually brought wholeness and the cat back to life by ending the monk's arguing and divisive thoughts, and returning to Wholeness and the Absolute. No cat was harmed, in either the relative or the absolute sense.



Gassho, J
stlah

[Jundo]

By the way, the film is available in full on Youtube. When I checked, it is with the permission of Soto-shu and the film makers that the film be made widely available for free.

.

.
Gassho, J
stlah

[IanSmith]

Get well soon
Gassho
Sat lah

[Shoshin]

Hi All,



I was down with the influenza for a few days, and in my feverish state ... i had this pass through my own fever dreams. Hmmmm. Well, I don't know that the event actually followed the "slipper slapping" incident. Dogen never actually connected the two in his own writings, and it seems that the story was made by later biographers' imagination. However, if I had to connect them ...

I might have had Dogen sitting Zazen quietly, not much happening. Rujing enters, scolding sleeping monks. The slap of the slipper ... shot changes to Dogen's POV, as a small ball of dust is moved onto his robe by the breeze from the waving slipper. Zoom in tighter and tighter into the dust ball, almost microscopic level now which, as we proceed forward, contains Dogen, then all sentient beings, and the world, then the cosmos, then we keep heading forward but also all reverses as we head deeper to the dust ball again ... All this happens in a moment. At the end, Dogen is sitting Zazen quietly all along.

At least, much more understated ... no floating pink lotus blossoms in the sky!

But if could do my own way ... Dogen is sitting Zazen, the dustball blows in a window across his robes, it blows away, he continues sitting ...

(But don't listen to me today ... I have a fever just below 38c )

As to the cat, it is unlikely that any cat was actually killed ... One of the most easily misunderstood of Koans, I feel ...

Nanchuan (Nansen) saw the monks of the eastern and western halls fighting over a cat. Seizing the cat, he told the monks: “If any of you can say a word of Zen, you will save the cat.” No one answered. Nanchuan cut the cat in two.

Here is how I take it: The "Sword of Wisdom" in Mahayana Buddhism actually makes the separate things of the world one when it "uncuts." It is the opposite of a worldly sword. The monks, in fighting over the cat, are the ones who had already mentally divided it.

There was unlikely to have been any literal killing celebrated by Buddhist priests who take a vow to avoid violence, not to mention all the Karmic ramifications. Instead, Nansen actually brought wholeness and the cat back to life by ending the monk's arguing and divisive thoughts, and returning to Wholeness and the Absolute. No cat was harmed, in either the relative or the absolute sense.



Gassho, J
stlah

I'd like this scene

I wish you a hasty recovery

Gassho,
Ester