[NeuroDiverse] Autism and Koans

[Benjamin Gieseke]

So, over the past year or so I've realized that I'm most likely autistic. I say likely because while I don't have a formal diagnosis, I fit a lot of the patterns and behaviors, and in conversation with my therapist, have used the lens of ASD to cope with emotions and situations with greater success than previously, so, "likely" autistic. This has been a profound shift in my self-understanding and has helped me unpack a lot of past experiences in a new light.

I have been reading Jundo's book on Dogen, and came to a section where Dogen tells a short story (I don't know if its officially a koan, but it has that flavor that Zen stories and koans share, in my mind). I'll quote the story below, for reference, but ultimately the content is not as important as the realization I had reading it through the new lens of being neurodivergent, which was quite simply, that without Dogen and Jundo's illumination, I probably would never have "gotten" the story (or at least, not quickly). The many layers of allusion and metaphor present in these sorts of stories and in koans are extremely difficult for my brain to wade through, and without explanation they will generally remain opaque for me.

I've read a lot of koans over the years and for the most part have not experienced any sort of deep meaning or insight from them. Historically I'd justify this by saying I just didn't have the level of insight necessary yet, or that the meaning of the story is that it has no meaning. And while that certainly may be true for many or even most cases, the lens of ASD has me wondering if I would have "gotten" them at all. Struggling to understand metaphor, symbolism, allusion, etc., are pretty hallmark characteristics of ASD, and koans feel loaded with them.

It also sheds some light on my preference throughout the years for Soto over Rinzai, and for teachers that "just say it" instead of speaking obliquely (Thich Nhat Hanh, Alan Watts, Jundo!). I don't know that I have any specific questions at this point, mostly just curious to hear other people's thoughts on the topic. Also, gratitude to Jundo for speaking plainly, and to Soto Zen in general for a simple and forthright practice!

Sorry for the long post, thank you for your attention!
Gassho, Benjamin
satlah

The story (hopefully its ok to reproduce this, if not, please delete!): "Zen Master Baoche of Mt. Mayu was fanning himself. A young monk came before him and asked, 'Master, the nature of air is always present and there is no place where it does not reach. Why then do you fan yourself?'
'Although you may know that the nature of air is always present,' Master Baoche replied, 'you have not understood the meaning of its reaching everywhere.'
The monk asked further, 'Then what is the meaning of its reaching everywhere, Master?'
The master just carried on fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply."
From " The Zen Master's Dance", Jundo Cohen, P. 68-69

[Bion]

It´s fantastic that you brought something out of that story! I find myself fighting koans sometimes because I keep constructing these ideas in my head about how surely there´s layers of language I´m missing, surely there´s something there I am not given to solve that puzzle the way others seem to easily do. I usually don´t latch on to those emotions. Sometimes I get the gist and,I want to say, mostly I don´t. That´s why I do my best to keep learning. Thank you for sharing!!!

Gassho
sat and lah

[Jundo]

... I have been reading Jundo's book on Dogen, and came to a section where Dogen tells a short story (I don't know if its officially a koan, but it has that flavor that Zen stories and koans share, in my mind). I'll quote the story below, for reference, but ultimately the content is not as important as the realization I had reading it through the new lens of being neurodivergent, which was quite simply, that without Dogen and Jundo's illumination, I probably would never have "gotten" the story (or at least, not quickly). The many layers of allusion and metaphor present in these sorts of stories and in koans are extremely difficult for my brain to wade through, and without explanation they will generally remain opaque for me.

Hi Benjamin,

I cannot comment on the role of autism, but many many people struggle with Koans, because of the "lost in translation" aspects, the forgotten references to ancient poems, old Chinese puns, cultural references, obscure historical references, 1000 year out of date Chinese slang, and the like, plus the performative aspects (where masters try to show something "beyond words" by holding up a stick or like actions). It is as if I wrote a Koan referencing "Thomas the Tank Engine," "Bling" and "Jersey Shore" and added a one-handed "fist bump" and expected someone 1000 years in the future, in Lithuania, to get the references. That is also some factor in why they are hard to get.

Of course, the Koans are often "logical" and can be explained in words, but it is not our ordinary common sense logic, and sometimes ordinary grammar structure and ordinary words will not do. For example, usually a cup of tea is not a mountain is not Buddha in our ordinary way of encountering the world as separate things yet, in in our "Zen logic" (which is more to be experienced than merely explained) they certainly is/are, and Buddha is the tea mountaining as tea, and the mountain teaing as the mountain. You, Benjamin, are the teamountainBuddha teamountainBuddhaing as Benjamin, and you them. Our "true nature" is each and all of this! The Koans are far from "meaningless," but need to be expressed (much as I just did) in ways, with creative expressions and symbols, to convey this "not our ordinary" manner of experiencing the profound interidentity and wholeness of this world. Our usual subject/object sentence structure with its judgmental adjectives and adverbs and tenses of time cannot well convey that which leaps through subject/object, judgements and time (yet is simultaneously present as subject/object, judgements and time).

The story Dogen tells about the fan means very much that Buddha is everywhere and everything but, if we do not manifest so in our practice and actions then Buddha is not manifest.

Somewhere the notion developed that Koans need to be confusing, the more puzzling the better. That is not so. Almost all the Koans I know actually mean something, although a meaning found in Zen perspectives and often needing to be expressed not with "normal" language.

By the way, Ben, if you have similar difficult understanding, for example, famous poems, rap and other song lyrics, double-entendre joke and such in daily life, which often use like word play and symbolism, then it may be not only Koans.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Kokuu]

Hi Benjamin

It would be interesting to know if autism causes an additional difficulty in understanding koans. I think it is hard to know as, like Bion and Jundo point out, these stories are often not immediately graspable to our usual logical mind, and require a different way of looking at things which is why they can be helpful to our practice.

However, as with most things, they are probably written for neurotypical minds, but beneath the layers of allusion there is usually a pretty direct meaning to be teased out that does not depend on understanding the context of the story.

The koans I like are the ones that I can see point to particular truths of practice, such as this one which Jundo points out nicely illustrates Dogen's teachings on practice and enlightenment not being separate. This is how we mostly use them in Soto Zen, as teaching stories, and they can be very valuable in that regard.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Guest]

In my experience with koans, they are always pointing to the truth of this moment, but they are delivered in such a way that the mind, like a dog, takes the bone, and runs with it. In almost all koans, if we can stay with the present moment experience and point to it (unwaveringly) then we pretty much have it. When living with neurodiversity, often times the mind is very concrete about a situation, and so the meaning of a koan may not be seen right away, but if someone with a neurodiverse mind sees the mind trap, then my belief is that person could actually be very good at koans, in fact perhaps even better than a neurotypical mind. That being said, would I recommend a koan for a neurodiverse person? Sure, but I would think a teacher would need to know about the neurodiversity and be willing to have a different answer for the koan that actually works but may not be the scripted answer. In fact, as I write this, I think all teachers need to be clear enough to know that a person's answer may go off script, but if it is pointing to the truth, then it is the correct answer.

Please take this with a grain of salt, I am still learning as a priest in training.

Gassho,
Daiman
ST/LAH

[Benjamin Gieseke]

Thank you Bion, Jundo, Daiman, and Kokuu for your comments and perspectives! I think in my initial post I was perhaps not as skillful or clear as I could have been in my point, which was not to be critical of koan practice, or even of myself, but more just an observation that koan practice may present unique challenges for neurodiverse folks, and also to give myself some permission to "let go" of untangling the meanings behind these stories if they don't make sense to me (not that I was losing much sleep over it anway!). I'll just add a couple other quick replies to comments, in an attempt to be brief!

By the way, Ben, if you have similar difficult understanding, for example, famous poems, rap and other song lyrics, double-entendre joke and such in daily life, which often use like word play and symbolism, then it may be not only Koans.

stlah

Yes, haha! Reading that Dogen story was just the latest in a long chain of realizations related to possibly being on the spectrum.

...these stories are often not immediately graspable to our usual logical mind, and require a different way of looking at things which is why they can be helpful to our practice... but beneath the layers of allusion there is usually a pretty direct meaning to be teased out that does not depend on understanding the context of the story.

The koans I like are the ones that I can see point to particular truths of practice...This is how we mostly use them in Soto Zen, as teaching stories, and they can be very valuable in that regard.

I definitely appreciate and respect this aspect of how they are used in Soto, as well as the willingness, at least in this community, to illuminate or add commentary that helps make the meaning clearer!

Thank you again, gassho,
Benjamin
satlah

[Onki]

In my experience with koans, they are always pointing to the truth of this moment, but they are delivered in such a way that the mind, like a dog, takes the bone, and runs with it. In almost all koans, if we can stay with the present moment experience and point to it (unwaveringly) then we pretty much have it. When living with neurodiversity, often times the mind is very concrete about a situation, and so the meaning of a koan may not be seen right away, but if someone with a neurodiverse mind sees the mind trap, then my belief is that person could actually be very good at koans, in fact perhaps even better than a neurotypical mind. That being said, would I recommend a koan for a neurodiverse person? Sure, but I would think a teacher would need to know about the neurodiversity and be willing to have a different answer for the koan that actually works but may not be the scripted answer. In fact, as I write this, I think all teachers need to be clear enough to know that a person's answer may go off script, but if it is pointing to the truth, then it is the correct answer.

Please take this with a grain of salt, I am still learning as a priest in training.

Gassho,
Daiman
ST/LAH

This is a very good point. As a neurodiverse person, I feel that I take things very literally.

Before Treeleaf, I was part of a Rinzai Sangha and koan practice was the bread and butter so to speak. I will admit that I did get a few “correct” ones, but most of them just didn’t make sense in my mind.

Gasshō,

On

Sat today/LAH

[Jundo]

Let me mention that I am currently selecting a Koan collection to go through in our "Beyond Words and Letters" Book Club. It may be the Blue Cliff Record or another collection that has been cherished in Soto Zen in the past. I hope your will join us for that voyage down that river.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Meian]

As others here have mentioned, and as an autistic person myself - I also have always struggled with koans, for the same reason (I think) that I take koans at face value. When there is a dichotomy of meanings and truths - which koans often seem to me - I have difficulty reconciling them or making sense of the apparent contrasts that seem to have no answer. This is something I expect to understand better in time.

Gassho, Kyodo (Meian)
stlh

[Koriki]

While not in the category of Soto Zen, I really really like "Bring Me the Rhinoceros" by John Tarrant. He has good, wide ranging discussions about each koan in an effort to make them relatable. The "answers" don't end up feeling like they came out of left field as they can with some koans.

Gassho,

Koriki
s@lah