[HealthDharma] IS ZEN THERAPY?

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  • Matt Johnson
    Member
    • Jun 2024
    • 400

    [HealthDharma] IS ZEN THERAPY?

    IS ZEN THERAPY?

    Ryōdō: Zen can be incredibly therapeutic, especially when we consider its emphasis on non-duality. In many cases, psychological suffering arises from a sense of separation—separation from others, from the world, and even from parts of ourselves. Zen addresses this by guiding us toward an experience of non-duality, where these perceived boundaries dissolve. When someone begins to realize that the self is not an isolated entity but interconnected with everything, it can lead to a profound sense of healing. This realization can reduce feelings of loneliness, anxiety, and fear, which are often rooted in the illusion of separateness. Unlike traditional therapy, which sometimes reinforces the sense of a separate self through analysis and introspection, Zen helps individuals move beyond these divisions, fostering a deeper, more holistic healing that integrates the mind, body, and spirit. By recognizing the non-dual nature of existence, a person can let go of much of the mental suffering that arises from clinging to a false sense of identity, leading to a more enduring and transformative healing process. As Thich Nhat Hanh says “Zen practice is the direct way to see into the heart of one’s suffering, and in seeing, to heal it.

    Shōe: While I agree that Zen's emphasis on non-duality offers profound insights and can indeed lead to a deep sense of peace, it's important to recognize that this realization alone is not a substitute for the structured, individualized care that therapy provides, especially when dealing with significant psychological issues. The experience of non-duality, as transformative as it is, might not address the specific and often complex needs that arise from trauma, anxiety disorders, or depression. These conditions can require targeted interventions that therapy is designed to provide.

    Moreover, the path to realizing non-duality can be challenging and may not be immediately accessible to everyone, especially those in acute psychological distress. For some, the concepts of non-self and interconnectedness might even be confusing or destabilizing if not carefully guided by someone experienced in both Zen and mental health. Therapy provides a safer space to explore and process these issues without the risk of bypassing or misunderstanding them. While Zen can certainly complement therapy, providing a broader context for healing, it's not a replacement. The structured support, understanding, and coping strategies that therapy offers are crucial for many on their journey to well-being, especially before they’re ready to fully engage with the deeper aspects of Zen practice. As Kodo Sawaki essentially said, Zen is not self-improvement.

    A little dialectic I continue to work though. Interested in others thoughts.

    _/\_

    sat/ah

    Matt
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-10-2024, 06:55 PM.
  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40466

    #2
    Hi Matt,

    What is the source of this conversation? Your own writing? It is very well stated and comprehensive.

    I agree with about all of it that I see. I usually write this on the topic when it comes up regarding Zen practice for people suffering, for example, depression, extreme anxiety or addiction issues:

    ... I suspect that Shikantaza ... in its quietness, in the total stillness and acceptance ... would be something helpful with what you describe ...

    But Zazen is -NOT- a cure for many things ... it will not fix a bad tooth (just allow you to be present with the toothache ... you had better see a dentist, not a Zen teacher), cure cancer (although it may have some healthful effects and make one more attune to the process of chemotherapy and/or dying), etc. Zen practice will not cure your acne on your face, or fix your flat tire. All it will do is let one "be at one, and whole" ... TRULY ONE ... with one's pimples and punctured wheel, accepting and embracing of each, WHOLLY WHOLE with/as each one. There are many psychological problems or psycho/medical problems such as alcoholism that may require other therapies, although Zen can be part of a 12-Step program or such (a few Zen teachers in America with a drinking problem had to seek outside help). My feeling is that some things are probably best handled by medical, psychological or psychiatric treatment, not Zen teachers.

    My feeling is that receiving outside treatment, medication AND "just sitting" can all work together.

    Follow your mental health professional's advice on whether Zazen or other meditation would be helpful for your condition (it can aggravate some conditions in some circumstances, for example, for people with dissociative disorders or who are in extremely fragile states due to severe trauma or depression.) If your doctor approves, then please do practice both together.
    I would not say that Zen practice is, or substitutes for, therapy. However, it does have definite therapeutic aspects for the angst of our feelings of separation from, and friction with, the circumstances of life.

    Gassho, Jundo
    stlah

    PS - I also add this sometimes ...

    PS - We are all human, and I think that sometimes even Dogen and the Buddha himself got up on the wrong side of the bed, overworked and torn, felt disappointment or grief in the face of sad news or loss (why do we like to say that they were totally beyond all that, robbing them of some natural humanity? There is a famous Sutta in which the Buddha fails in preventing a war which results in the death of many in his birth family. If he did not feel sad at such a time, them there was something wrong with him.) There is a difference between seeing through emotions and not wallowing and being their prisoner, letting them take over to extremes ... and feeling simple, natural human emotions as we are wired in the brain and as is appropriate to life situations. Sometimes, we all wake up blue. Sometimes life is hard. No big deal. In Mahayana Buddhism, we transcend and see through Samsara (this sometimes beautiful and sometimes ugly daily world). However, we are still human beings living in it ... free and seeing through the world, yet still in it and these human bodies.
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-10-2024, 07:13 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • Matt Johnson
      Member
      • Jun 2024
      • 400

      #3
      Well It's a dialog that I have had in my head for a bit. When I reflect on my own practice there have been times when it was very clearly therapeutic specifically for trauma and it is supported by the literature regarding reprocessing trauma. But as a social worker I was never really allowed to use or recommend zazen (i did anyway) as it was considered out of scope (eventually Kornfield et.al got the door open with MBSR but this is not the same). It was sad because here I was helped by Zazen but unable to recommend what helped me.

      Yet there are many Buddhist teachers out there who do not have a mental health background. So it's seems there is nothing out of scope for a Zen teacher?!... There are also some other mental health problems that could be characterized as not-enough separation (schizophrenia, BPD, and many others)... Realizing non-separation could help contextualize and validate their experience and self-boundry issues, but could also cause a psychotic break.

      It's also a conversation I had with my last teacher. "Zen isn't therapy" he'd say... And then I'd say "it's better than therapy."

      Thoughts?

      _/\_

      sat/ah

      Matt
      Last edited by Matt Johnson; 08-11-2024, 12:50 AM.

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 40466

        #4
        Originally posted by Matt Johnson
        Yet there are many Buddhist teachers out there who do not have a mental health background. So it's seems there is nothing out of scope for a Zen teacher?!... There are also some other mental health problems that could be characterized as not-enough separation (schizophrenia, BPD, and many others)... Realizing non-separation could help contextualize and validate their experience and self-boundry issues, but could also cause a psychotic break.
        That is precisely the reason, as a non-mental health professional myself, that I ALWAYS point people to therapy, or confirm that they are already in therapy, if anyone brings their issues with depression, PTSD, addiction or other serious psychological condition into our Sangha. It is the same as I would tell a Zen person with chest pains to see their heart doctor, because I am not a cardiologist! And if I ever have someone (very rare these past many years, but it happens, e.g., some unbearable and extreme emotion welling up) who reports negative effects from sitting, I tell them to break it off, stop and got talk to their mental health professional about whether it is good for them to continue. We also have some of our priests and trusted members who are mental health professionals, and they help keep an eye on situations here that might develop (e.g., we have had a few members who were in real crisis, and we guided them to help resources.)

        Generally, Shikantaza as we sit is such a gentle, mild practice, that it is much more unlikely to induce experiences of "mental break," disassociation and the like in sitters compared to very intense, very concentrated, extremely intense forms of meditation (with all due respect to Harada-Yasutani, some of the Rinzai folks, Mahasi Sayada, Goenka and such folks).

        On the other hand, I also have an issue with some Zen teachers who are mental health professionals, and who OVER "psychologize" Zen practice, turning it too much into a form a therapy. Sorry but, while there are all the wonderful therapeutic benefits that you name, I am rather old school: Zen is about awakening, understanding "who we are in/as the universe," transcending time, space, birth and death and all that "old time good stuff." It is not principally about helping somebody come to terms with their rocky relationship with their mother as a child, although it certainly can and will do that too along the way.



        Gassho, J
        stlah
        Last edited by Jundo; 08-11-2024, 02:02 AM.
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

        Comment

        • Matt Johnson
          Member
          • Jun 2024
          • 400

          #5
          Ok... so do you think it is possible to "wake" someone up too early? Or is it ultimately always the "right" time?

          _/\_

          sat/ah

          Matt

          Last edited by Matt Johnson; 08-11-2024, 02:29 AM.

          Comment

          • Kaisho
            Member
            • Nov 2016
            • 190

            #6
            Hello,
            I find this take quite interesting myself as I am beginning to explore client centered care in my social work studies. That being said based on limited knowledge I have found that meditation does have parallels, many you have noted here. The one that strikes me at the moment is the breaking down of dualism into a non dualistic view in the midst of the stories we tell ourselves. These stories often are limiters to how we interact with ourselves, others, and the environment we find ourselves in. When we begin to break these down and realize our stories are not always as they seem issues clarify or some breakthrough happens.

            I know you cover this in a more elegant way but I appreciate the space to talk about this. Also meditation has been found to have positive effects, though the actual studies escape me at the moment so maybe take that with a grain of salt.

            Gassho

            Kaisho
            Stlah

            PS it's late and I'm on my phone. Please forgive editing mistakes I may have overlooked.

            Comment

            • Jundo
              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
              • Apr 2006
              • 40466

              #7
              Originally posted by Matt Johnson
              Ok... so do you think it is possible to "wake" someone up too early? Or is it ultimately always the "right" time?

              _/\_

              sat/ah

              Matt
              Hmmm. Well, "waking" in Soto Zen can come in many forms. It can be a big, radical, profound dropping away of "self," in which one experiences (somehow leaping through even "experienced" and "experiencer") the dropping of the self/other divide, and the deep interpenetration and interidentity of all things, beings and moments of time ...

              ... or (even better if more lasting) a deep and slow penetration of such Wisdom and Compassion in one's bones, a softening of the self/other divide, like walking through a light rain which leaves one as soaked as walking directly into the ocean.

              In any case, it is how one carries on from there, in this divided world of me and you, things, beings and passing time, that is most vital. Having some deep experience is not "waking" for Soto folks, but living in Wisdom and Compassion is.

              I think that each person just realizes such in their own way, in their own time.

              Gassho, J
              stlah
              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

              Comment

              • Houzan
                Member
                • Dec 2022
                • 527

                #8
                It is strange that you were not allowed to recommend meditation. It is a widely used and accepted methodology in psychological clinical treatment.

                Gassho, Hōzan (BA and MSc in Psychology, although some years back)
                Satlah

                Comment

                • Matt Johnson
                  Member
                  • Jun 2024
                  • 400

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Hōzan
                  It is strange that you were not allowed to recommend meditation. It is a widely used and accepted methodology in psychological clinical treatment.

                  Gassho, Hōzan (BA and MSc in Psychology, although some years back)
                  Satlah
                  New Brunswick Canada is a bit of a backwater. We are still not allowed to do online therapy outside our province (though that may be just changing). Like I mentioned MBSR (also CBT which can be bent to the purpose) gets a pass but I can't recommend anything remotely religious per se. Now with a masters things have changed a little. But I just lost the plot with helping people in that way. The social work I did was mostly community dev work. I found that I was of most help to people when they didn't even realize they were being helped.

                  gassho,
                  sat/ah
                  matt

                  Comment

                  • Matt Johnson
                    Member
                    • Jun 2024
                    • 400

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Kaisho
                    Hello,
                    I find this take quite interesting myself as I am beginning to explore client centered care in my social work studies. That being said based on limited knowledge I have found that meditation does have parallels, many you have noted here. The one that strikes me at the moment is the breaking down of dualism into a non dualistic view in the midst of the stories we tell ourselves. These stories often are limiters to how we interact with ourselves, others, and the environment we find ourselves in. When we begin to break these down and realize our stories are not always as they seem issues clarify or some breakthrough happens.

                    I know you cover this in a more elegant way but I appreciate the space to talk about this. Also meditation has been found to have positive effects, though the actual studies escape me at the moment so maybe take that with a grain of salt.
                    Hi Kaisho! When I first embarked on my social work career (which is now basically defunct, at least in a way that I charge people) narrative studies was a big up-and-coming thing. Using narrative to help people is always very interesting and everybody has a story. It also parallels very well with Dogen's to "study the way is to study the self".

                    Every time we tell our story we basically take It off of the shelf unfold it, take a look at it, fold it back up and put back in. But every time we do this it changes a little, especially in light of new information we have about ourselves. Slowly over time this narrative starts to change (especially with a little) and can sometimes become unrecognisable such that it no longer causes us suffering.

                    Social work is tricky for me because I chose it because it located the root of suffering at the societal level as opposed to the individual. Our job is social workers was to identify the systemic levels of oppression and to advocate for those who did not have a voice. Very different from psychology. where the individual is identified as the person who needs to have the work done.

                    In the context of Zen, we generally assume that the practise of zazen is something that the individual does in order to cope with the world. There's a famous quote about either covering the entire world in leather or putting some on our own feet that comes to mind.

                    Anyway, very interested in hearing from any other mental health professionals on how they have integrated their insights of Zen into their practise.

                    _/\_

                    sat/ah

                    Matt

                    Comment

                    • Houzan
                      Member
                      • Dec 2022
                      • 527

                      #11
                      Sitting gives us wisdom, but it should manifest as compassion. Or else it’s only half the practice? Compassion to me is to work with karma, to act like a Buddha, in line with the precepts, to live gently and be of help to all, incl. self. Thus, if therapy is required to manifest wisdom and act in a compassionate way, then therapy is as zen as zen can get, is it not? When Sawaki said “zen is not self-improvement” I guess he is saying that zen should not be seen as an approach that aim to strengthen the sense of self (as opposed to Self).
                      Great question, Matt

                      Gassho, Hōzan
                      Satlah
                      Last edited by Houzan; 08-16-2024, 01:53 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Matt Johnson
                        Member
                        • Jun 2024
                        • 400

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Houzan
                        Sitting gives us wisdom, but it should manifest as compassion. Or else it’s only half the practice? Compassion to me is to work with karma, to act like a Buddha, in line with the precepts, to live gently and be of help to all, incl. self. Thus, if therapy is required to manifest wisdom and act in a compassionate way, then therapy is as zen as zen can get, is it not? When Sawaki said “zen is not self-improvement” I guess he is saying that zen should not be seen as an approach that aim to strengthen the sense of self (as opposed to Self).
                        Great question, Matt
                        Thanks Houzan! The part that often confuses me is trying to figure out what is compassion to each person. We often assume it means being "nice". For most daily interactions I think this is the best way to approach things. However, too much of it or it becoming the default setting can also be problematic. We can't go through all our interactions just mindlessly grin-f*cking people. This is what Daido Loori called "idiot compassion".

                        But I also think Carl Rogers was right, that from a therapeutic, person-centered perspective-- unconditional positive regard is the way to go. There is so little of it in the world and in the lives of many people. I guess that's why we also need wisdom to figure out when to break out the kyosaku so again, I don't think it's smart to do that in a therapeutic context, although sometimes you do see it when addressing people's cognitive distortions in CBT and reality therapy.

                        _/\_
                        sat/ah
                        matt


                        Comment

                        • Jundo
                          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                          • Apr 2006
                          • 40466

                          #13
                          grin-f*cking people.
                          Soft and gentle speech around here. please avoid such expression, even with the "*" please. It really changes the atmosphere. I compare it to what graffiti can do to a neighborhood.
                          Thank you. Please humor me on this. It does make a difference, keeping this place from being like much of the rest of social media and society.

                          Gassho, Jundo
                          stlah
                          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                          Comment

                          • Houzan
                            Member
                            • Dec 2022
                            • 527

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Matt Johnson
                            The part that often confuses me is trying to figure out what is compassion to each person.
                            Yes, could be anything. Carl Rogers suggested active listening, but it’s not an easy practice.

                            Gassho, Hōzan
                            Satlah

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