[HealthDharma] Turning Suffering Inside Out, chapter one, part two

[Kokuu]

Hi all

This week's reading is ithe second part of chapter one, p15-23 ‘Pleasure and Addiction’ to end of chapter.

In this part of the chapter Darlene talks about the cycle of pain and pleasure and how many of us come to meditation in order to reduce pain and suffering. She reminds us that although the downsides of pain are obvious, it is not as clear that chasing pleasure also perpetuates the cycle, as it turns out the pleasure may not actually be what we want, be disappointing or ending too quickly. Trying to recapture the pleasure, or find a more meaningful or long-lasting joy can lead to a lifetime of chasing after external things.

Darlene talks about how even when she became absorbed in meditative bliss and everything seemed to be going well, eventually she yearned for the mundane ups and downs of live rather than a one-sided existence. She observes that some Zen students feel that they should be calm and serene all of the time and try to embody that.

She emphasises that a full life is one in which we accept all of the states of mind that come up, not just the pleasant ones, and ones that seem to fulfil our notion of being a ‘good Buddhist’. In this way we do not become addicted to any one particular state of mind but can appreciate the fullness of all that life has to offer.

Question prompts, although feel free to talk about any part of the reading that resonated with you:

1. Can you recall a particular time of chasing after something pleasurable only to be disappointed when it finally arrived?

2. Even if, as a Zen student, you probably have heard it said that there is no such thing as a ‘bad’ meditation, do you still find yourself thinking that sits that feel peaceful and less disturbed are better? (confession – I still catch myself thinking that!) Or try to live up to being a good Zen student with calmness and equanimity? Are there certain parts of your experience you try to disown because they don't fit your self-image?

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Austin]

[HealthDharma] Turning Suffering Inside Out, chapter one, part two

Hello,

Thank you again for the opportunity to read with you all. I really connected with this second part of chapter 1. When my life was turned upside down for the duration of about 10 years, there was a window of time where I chased after the intoxication I felt from meditation and mindfulness after reading the Ram Dass book, Be Here Now.

Before this search for spirituality, I had lost control of myself in a myriad of addictions, had lost all hope, and had attempted suicide. This led to waking up and finding myself as an inpatient at a psychiatric facility. Those 9 days were an incredibly powerful time for me — not really because of any kind of treatment I received, but because I was forced to look at myself and wasn’t able to run away any more. I had to face the cards that had been dealt to me, and was compelled to discover the cause of all my suffering.

After reading that book, and subsequent spiritual books, I became addicted to feeling the bliss that came with some meditative practices. I came to believe that this feeling justified this new approach to life, and that I must be walking on the path of enlightenment. I saw lovely happenstance in everything and was blinded by seeing only the good in things. This made me heartless even when I believed myself to be compassionate for sharing my great insight to those who were suffering. For the most part I didn’t feel any negative emotions and even when I did I chalked them up as everything being “the one” with nothing to worry about.

As Darlene commented, I eventually fell from this state when life hit again. But I was still lost. To be honest, it wasn’t until I got married and was in India without the means to feed my addictions that the seeds of destruction started to be cooked. Today the roots are probably still there, but my environment has changed and my duties as a husband and father keep me grounded. I have lost my taste for such behavior for the most part, and I think this is also due to age. It’s all so exhausting.

Now I am trying to sit with the real here and now — not the idealized one in my mind. Thank you for sitting with me.

Gasshō,
Austin

stlah

[Alina]

Thank you Kokuu for choosing this book, Darlene Cohen's way of expressing her teachings is very refreshing and eye-opening.

She observes that some Zen students feel that they should be calm and serene all of the time and try to embody that.

I've been one of those students she talks about, and when I was not calm and serene all the time I'd feel guilty about it. It took a few years for me to realize that I cannot escape the "not-nice" feelings, and that allowing myself to feel them is actually healthier.


1. Can you recall a particular time of chasing after something pleasurable only to be disappointed when it finally arrived?
My "little" addictions are chocolate, especially in the afternoon, and cheese, mostly in the evening. I don't eat a lot, but it's a strong craving, as if having some chocolate would make everything better. I enjoy the chocolate, but the dissatisfaction is always there, some days stronger than others.

I've had big disappointments after meeting with someone with whom I was expecting to have a good time with, only to find that they are in a hurry, or not into the same things, or just not looking forward to it as much as I was. It used to hurt a lot, but it has taught me to really appreciate when a true connection does happen when meeting with others, and to build an inner life that doesn't depend on others.


2. Even if, as a Zen student, you probably have heard it said that there is no such thing as a ‘bad’ meditation, do you still find yourself thinking that sits that feel peaceful and less disturbed are better? (confession – I still catch myself thinking that!) Or try to live up to being a good Zen student with calmness and equanimity?
Yes, I've learned to appreciate the "bad zazens" as part of the way, usually a "bad zazen" leads me to face or understand something I was not seeing before, but I have to admit that I prefer the "good zazens".

Are there certain parts of your experience you try to disown because they don't fit your self-image?
Wow, I never thought of it that way, but I feel like you nailed it right there, I'll sit with this, thank you



Gassho

Alina
stlah

[Kaitan]

It seems like a predicament to not strive to be a perfect person, to be joyous all the time with everyone (I do agree with Marlene that people that look so heavenly shaped are quite uncomfortable to be with), but this chapter is like a reality check that shows what it means to be human: not to fall into extremes. How deep this book has felt. Some questions came to mind like: is accepting radically our states of mind include the state of "not accepting our states of mind", does that make sense? It seems to me that accepting the "not accepting" is very valid. An observation to this is that being aware of the "not accepting" and the "drowning in thought" is not something that I always considered and probably is dependent of not being distracted and that comes with practice, isn't?

1. Can you recall a particular time of chasing after something pleasurable only to be disappointed when it finally arrived?

Oh yes, many times, but I can't think of something spiritual related (with practice). I recall events in terms of career and traveling for the most part, long time yearnings that only brought me suffering.

2. Even if, as a Zen student, you probably have heard it said that there is no such thing as a ‘bad’ meditation, do you still find yourself thinking that sits that feel peaceful and less disturbed are better? (confession – I still catch myself thinking that!) Or try to live up to being a good Zen student with calmness and equanimity? Are there certain parts of your experience you try to disown because they don't fit your self-image?

I often pretend that I accept my bad sits, but in all honesty I prefer the good sits. By bad sits I mean when I think about the time that is left or how uncomfortable I feel physically. Parts that I disown a lot is the shame I feel for some stuff I've depressed and sometimes anger that recently has shocked me and can't recognize.

Gasshō

stlah, Kaitan

[Tairin]

1. Can you recall a particular time of chasing after something pleasurable only to be disappointed when it finally arrived?

Many times. Well maybe not disappointment but the feeling that the whatever-it-was didn’t quite meet the mark or live up to the expectations I had built up in my mind. Certain discretionary purchases that, after the initial honeymoon phase, ended up being just another thing.

2. Even if, as a Zen student, you probably have heard it said that there is no such thing as a ‘bad’ meditation, do you still find yourself thinking that sits that feel peaceful and less disturbed are better? (confession – I still catch myself thinking that!) Or try to live up to being a good Zen student with calmness and equanimity? Are there certain parts of your experience you try to disown because they don't fit your self-image?

From time to time I might feel I’ve spent most of my Zazen lost in thought or dwelling on the past day or whatever. Sometimes I get up thinking that I just wasted a Zazen session. It is at that point that I remind myself that I sat with what is, in this case sat with a busy/preoccupied mind. Not bad Zazen just busy/preoccupied mind Zazen

Personally I don’t struggle with the concept of living up to my image of being a good Zen student or feel there is some part of me to disown. What has occurred to me is whether I could live up to my image of being a Zen priest/monk. Right or wrong I do put higher expectations there than on a lay Zen practitioner.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[adahee]

Hi, everyone.

1. Can you recall a particular time of chasing after something pleasurable only to be disappointed when it finally arrived?

Yes. There have been many times and many chases. There were times that involved buying stuff that I thought would somehow make life so much better only to be sorely disappointment and poorer. There were times when chemicals seemed to offer a solution. I had a hard time when I quit smoking and I still get a strong urge to drink every once in a while. I am not an alcoholic but there was a time when I was on that path. Food. OMG how I miss certain foods because they "comforted" me somehow.

2. Even if, as a Zen student, you probably have heard it said that there is no such thing as a ‘bad’ meditation, do you still find yourself thinking that sits that feel peaceful and less disturbed are better? (confession – I still catch myself thinking that!) Or try to live up to being a good Zen student with calmness and equanimity? Are there certain parts of your experience you try to disown because they don't fit your self-image?

Yes sometimes I want to quit my sits early (sometimes I do) because they are not peaceful or I can't seem to get that monkey brain to slow down. Being a perpetual beginner, I am not a good Zen student. But I try. And I try. And I try again. And again.

Buddhism as an algorithm of life is so elegant and simple yet it takes years of practice, both earnest and easy, to realize. At least that is how it seems to me...

Gassho,
steve
--st/lah--

[Naiko]

Thank you, Kokuu!

1. Many times. So much so that I was known among my friends for not wanting to commit to any plans. Last minute or spontaneous events were more fun because I didn’t taint them with expectations. I can also relate to the experience of the author’s client who saved for a dream vacation and didn’t enjoy it because she was so busy looking to the next thing. I like to think I’m now more mindful of this as I’ve gotten older and practiced more. My periods of spiritual bliss have never lasted long enough for me to find fault with them.

2. I must remind myself of this regularly. Before I learned shikantaza, I would find myself irritated about background noise during my meditation. I felt it was ruined if I didn’t have peace and quiet. I also judged my irritation. What a relief it was to find Soto Zen.
I’ve also long struggled with my ideas of what a good spiritual person or Buddhist is, and how I cannot live up to that impossible ideal. It seemed to me that students of Thich Nhat Hanh or the Indian guru I followed had adopted their teachers’ very slow and deliberate manner of moving and speaking. They were serene, while I was/am too impatient, too hot tempered, too political, too lazy, too too full of greed, anger and ignorance.
Gassho,
Naiko
stlah

[Dee Sunyata]

Thank you Kaitan for articulating "accepting ourselves for 'not accepting' all states of mind!

Gassho
Dee

Lah

[Shinchi SG]

1. I can think of lots of times like this! Building things up in my mind leading to impossible expectations, only to sadly be brought down to reality. A recent career "accomplishment" sits like this for me now, causing me to already feel the urge to strive for something else. Sitting with that urge and debating its usefulness is difficult...

2. Yes! Especially when I'm more stressed or busier than usual, I still find it hard not to sometimes go to zazen expecting or hoping for reprieve - only to be frustrated when my mind continues to bounce around.

I do also find it hard living up to this image of being a "good Zen student". There are some people very close to me who don't know that I'm a “Zen student” simply out of my own (slightly irrational) fear that I will mess up in some way and taint their image of Buddhism in general.

Gassho,
Shinchi
STlah

[Kokuu]

Before this search for spirituality, I had lost control of myself in a myriad of addictions, had lost all hope, and had attempted suicide. This led to waking up and finding myself as an inpatient at a psychiatric facility. Those 9 days were an incredibly powerful time for me — not really because of any kind of treatment I received, but because I was forced to look at myself and wasn’t able to run away any more. I had to face the cards that had been dealt to me, and was compelled to discover the cause of all my suffering.

After reading that book, and subsequent spiritual books, I became addicted to feeling the bliss that came with some meditative practices. I came to believe that this feeling justified this new approach to life, and that I must be walking on the path of enlightenment. I saw lovely happenstance in everything and was blinded by seeing only the good in things. This made me heartless even when I believed myself to be compassionate for sharing my great insight to those who were suffering. For the most part I didn’t feel any negative emotions and even when I did I chalked them up as everything being “the one” with nothing to worry about.

As Darlene commented, I eventually fell from this state when life hit again. But I was still lost. To be honest, it wasn’t until I got married and was in India without the means to feed my addictions that the seeds of destruction started to be cooked. Today the roots are probably still there, but my environment has changed and my duties as a husband and father keep me grounded. I have lost my taste for such behavior for the most part, and I think this is also due to age. It’s all so exhausting.

Thank you for sharing all of this, Austin. I don't think you are alone in seeking refuge in bliss after a period of intense upheaval. I can totally understand the importance of your time in a psychiatric institution which can act as a retreat imposed from outside. Eventually, most of us do seem to find a balance, and a refuge in what is real. The alternative is, like you say, exhausting

I've been one of those students she talks about, and when I was not calm and serene all the time I'd feel guilty about it. It took a few years for me to realize that I cannot escape the "not-nice" feelings, and that allowing myself to feel them is actually healthier.


1. Can you recall a particular time of chasing after something pleasurable only to be disappointed when it finally arrived?
My "little" addictions are chocolate, especially in the afternoon, and cheese, mostly in the evening. I don't eat a lot, but it's a strong craving, as if having some chocolate would make everything better. I enjoy the chocolate, but the dissatisfaction is always there, some days stronger than others.

I've had big disappointments after meeting with someone with whom I was expecting to have a good time with, only to find that they are in a hurry, or not into the same things, or just not looking forward to it as much as I was. It used to hurt a lot, but it has taught me to really appreciate when a true connection does happen when meeting with others, and to build an inner life that doesn't depend on others.

I can relate to chocolate and cheese as cravings! It is interesting that there is dissatisfaction there evevn though you enjoy the chocolate. Is it as simple as you say in expecting too much?

It is lovely what you say about the times when you meet with someone, only to be disappointed in the meeting for whatever reason, can lead you to more greatly appreciate the times when there is a connection there. Having a strong inner awareness does not mean we can do without other people, but seeing these patterns of expectation followed by disappointment can help us to stop building our happiness based on external factors.


Gassho
Kokuu

[Kokuu]

It seems like a predicament to not strive to be a perfect person, to be joyous all the time with everyone (I do agree with Marlene that people that look so heavenly shaped are quite uncomfortable to be with), but this chapter is like a reality check that shows what it means to be human: not to fall into extremes. How deep this book has felt. Some questions came to mind like: is accepting radically our states of mind include the state of "not accepting our states of mind", does that make sense? It seems to me that accepting the "not accepting" is very valid. An observation to this is that being aware of the "not accepting" and the "drowning in thought" is not something that I always considered and probably is dependent of not being distracted and that comes with practice, isn't?

Yes, I would totally include the 'not accepting' states of mind as part of accepting. Awareness of all of those states does comes with practice but I find that being aware of resistance and fighting thought states does not always happen right away, but becoming aware at any point is a good thing. Drowning in thought is not wrong or bad, and in some circumstances we can totally understand why it is happening. Often I find that I just need for the storm to blow itself out rather than control it.

I often pretend that I accept my bad sits, but in all honesty I prefer the good sits. By bad sits I mean when I think about the time that is left or how uncomfortable I feel physically. Parts that I disown a lot is the shame I feel for some stuff I've depressed and sometimes anger that recently has shocked me and can't recognize.

Yes, the good sits are nice! Bad sits do, however, show us our mind in terms of our frustration or discomfort. It can be hard to connect to the sides of ourselves that we don't like, or aren't fond of. However, I think it is good to remember but those parts are not necessarily something we have done, but dependently-arisen feelings just the same as the things we take joy or pride in.


Gassho
Kokuu

[Kokuu]

From time to time I might feel I’ve spent most of my Zazen lost in thought or dwelling on the past day or whatever. Sometimes I get up thinking that I just wasted a Zazen session. It is at that point that I remind myself that I sat with what is, in this case sat with a busy/preoccupied mind. Not bad Zazen just busy/preoccupied mind Zazen

Personally I don’t struggle with the concept of living up to my image of being a good Zen student or feel there is some part of me to disown. What has occurred to me is whether I could live up to my image of being a Zen priest/monk. Right or wrong I do put higher expectations there than on a lay Zen practitioner.

I think that for most of us there is more to live up to in being a priest/monk but it will probably come as no surprise to you that there is nothing magical in the robes themselves or the ceremony we go through. The practice remains the same of sitting and watching our mind and working not to act out of the three poisons.

It sounds like you have a healthy attitude to your Zazen.

Yes sometimes I want to quit my sits early (sometimes I do) because they are not peaceful or I can't seem to get that monkey brain to slow down. Being a perpetual beginner, I am not a good Zen student. But I try. And I try. And I try again. And again.

Buddhism as an algorithm of life is so elegant and simple yet it takes years of practice, both earnest and easy, to realize. At least that is how it seems to me...

I totally agree with that, and I don't think that the algorithm ever attends as life continues to unfold for us to practice with. Hopefully the unfolding becomes easier.

Part of that comes from your previous realisation that we find solace in pills (both legal and illegal), alcohol and tobacco and with insight understand how our minds are in near continuous motion because of attachment, aversion and ignorance, and try not to get caught up in those cycles to the same degree. But, as you might have noticed, our minds are tricky things and we can find ourselves becoming attached to how peaceful or non-reactive we are just as much as chemical substances.

Gassho
Kokuu

[Kokuu]

1. Many times. So much so that I was known among my friends for not wanting to commit to any plans. Last minute or spontaneous events were more fun because I didn’t taint them with expectations. I can also relate to the experience of the author’s client who saved for a dream vacation and didn’t enjoy it because she was so busy looking to the next thing. I like to think I’m now more mindful of this as I’ve gotten older and practiced more. My periods of spiritual bliss have never lasted long enough for me to find fault with them

I can identify with that last sentence! It is interesting that spontaneous events do not allow that time for expectations to ferment and, for that reason, often end up being more fun because we have no idea to compare them to.

I must remind myself of this regularly. Before I learned shikantaza, I would find myself irritated about background noise during my meditation. I felt it was ruined if I didn’t have peace and quiet. I also judged my irritation. What a relief it was to find Soto Zen.
I’ve also long struggled with my ideas of what a good spiritual person or Buddhist is, and how I cannot live up to that impossible ideal. It seemed to me that students of Thich Nhat Hanh or the Indian guru I followed had adopted their teachers’ very slow and deliberate manner of moving and speaking. They were serene, while I was/am too impatient, too hot tempered, too political, too lazy, too too full of greed, anger and ignorance.

When I first started sitting in my teens, my parent's house had radiators which made metallic cracking sounds when they heated up and I wondered how I was ever going to learn how to meditate with such a distractions! You are right that there is certainly a degree of mimicking that can go on to make you seem like a genuine follower or spritual student. It probably happens to us in Zen too but hopefully is something we grow out of. I know that I often don't feel serene enough but Zen seems to be more about living a genuine life rather than living up to an external ideal.

1. I can think of lots of times like this! Building things up in my mind leading to impossible expectations, only to sadly be brought down to reality. A recent career "accomplishment" sits like this for me now, causing me to already feel the urge to strive for something else. Sitting with that urge and debating its usefulness is difficult...

I do also find it hard living up to this image of being a "good Zen student". There are some people very close to me who don't know that I'm a “Zen student” simply out of my own (slightly irrational) fear that I will mess up in some way and taint their image of Buddhism in general.

I very much like your first example, and it seems good to reflect on. As you seem to be pointing to, it is not that career progression or aiming to take the next step is a bad thing in itself, but it is good to see just how quickly disatisfaction can set in after we have achieved one goal, and strive to get another hit of success rather than enjoying where we have got to.

It can definitely feel like we are each representatives of Buddhism and easier just to be a good person rather than have the ideals of others to live up to. As I often say to my (now adult) kids, though, there is no way to avoid messing up from time to time, what is important is how we deal with that.


Gassho
Kokuu