[Engaged] Call Me Kuchu: For the LGBT Community in Uganda

[Oheso]

I don't buy cultural relativism on this one. Like feminism, the opening up of gender roles and gender identities is a global value. It's inevitable ...like a river... like evolution.


Gassho Daizan

Agreed about the cultural relativism, however I think it's dangerous and wrong to assume the inevitability of the advancement of recognition of gay rights.

having seen the sea-change of Public Opinion, I'm all too aware of the fluidity of attitudes. here in new york, we've got a river who's Indian name indicated that it "flows both ways". pun intended

I'm also wondering what "an option for LGBT folks to be accommodated at the retreat without having to ask for special treatment" means. sounds like a well meaning provision for separate but equal accommodations or something ?? what in the world?

gassho,

•O•

[Dosho]

I'm also wondering what "an option for LGBT folks to be accommodated at the retreat without having to ask for special treatment" means. sounds like a well meaning provision for separate but equal accommodations or something ?? what in the world?

I had proposed the idea of a third option for accommodations at the retreat as an alternative to the male and female only areas that are currently offered. It would have been essentially a "genderless" area that would be completely voluntary and not require anyone to disclose information they do not wish to disclose. As uncomfortable as it may make some people, those who are transgender have had to make a choice between female and male room assignments at retreats as long such segregation has existed. Choosing the "genderless" option would not require disclosure of any kind, merely indicating that a person does not want to be separated by gender. I myself am not completely comfortable being housed only with men, so if such an option were available I would choose it even though I am not transgender. However, due to logistics this won't be possible, so anyone who is not comfortable being sorted into male and female areas will not have an "automatic" alternative. Anyone can request special accommodation of course and we will do our best to make it happen, but nothing can be guaranteed. I would think such a request could be accommodated, but it had been my hope that no one would have to have made such a request.

I hope that answers your question and places the issue somewhere in the world. If not, please let me know.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Byokan]

Dosho,


That’s an interesting idea. I wish for and look forward to a day when we don’t sort ourselves into these categories. Just people. Oh, it’s a ways off, still. But things are moving in the right direction I hope. Anyway I appreciate your sensitivity and placing the issue forward.


(IMHO, people just need to watch a lot more Sci Fi. Battlestar Galactica is somewhat genderless. In the Star Trek universe they gave up money. Come on world, catch up!)


Gassho
Lisa

[Oheso]

thank you Dosho. It does indeed place it. obviously I wasn't aware of the segregation by gender sleeping arrangements.

gassho, Robert

[Nengyo]

I had proposed the idea of a third option for accommodations at the retreat as an alternative to the male and female only areas that are currently offered. It would have been essentially a "genderless" area that would be completely voluntary and not require anyone to disclose information they do not wish to disclose. As uncomfortable as it may make some people, those who are transgender have had to make a choice between female and male room assignments at retreats as long such segregation has existed. Choosing the "genderless" option would not require disclosure of any kind, merely indicating that a person does not want to be separated by gender. I myself am not completely comfortable being housed only with men, so if such an option were available I would choose it even though I am not transgender. However, due to logistics this won't be possible, so anyone who is not comfortable being sorted into male and female areas will not have an "automatic" alternative. Anyone can request special accommodation of course and we will do our best to make it happen, but nothing can be guaranteed. I would think such a request could be accommodated, but it had been my hope that no one would have to have made such a request.

I hope that answers your question and places the issue somewhere in the world. If not, please let me know.

Gassho,
Dosho

I don't mind sharing quarters with anyone regardless of gender, sexuality, race, or religion. However, I do think we should have a Canadian free area. I've talked to some Canadians a few times and they are pretty kooky.



OK back to the serious talk.

[Taigu]

I agree Jundo, it is a matter of human rights and why I was so adamant that we have an option for LGBT folks to be accommodated at the retreat without having to ask for special treatment. However, in the end such an automatic option did not happen, although apparently for practical reasons (we still don't know exactly how anyone will be accommodated!). It definitely saddens me though that there is not implicit compassion and understanding for people who differ from "us", but in such insignificant ways compared to how we are alike.

We are doing our best, Dosho. And know that I , because of my own history and life experience, respect and treasure these people more , much more than you can ever imagine.

Once we can sit quietly together and we can talk peacefully, I shall explain to you why I believe that spliting reality even further than male and female can create more problems.

For now, I am going to ask Yugen and Dokan to consider an option.

But please, for now, be at peace and don't assume i am part of a bunch of heart-cold machos.

Thank you


Gassho

T.

[Dosho]

Taigu,

I am glad to hear that you have great compassion for people who identify as transgender and look forward to discussing the topic with you in the future.

I am at peace Taigu (although I'll admit my initial reaction to the option not being offered after I thought it had been agreed to was less than ideal, with apologies to Yugen) and hope you are able to find peace as well.

And I do not assume you are a "cold-heart macho", but actions speak much louder than words ever could.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Taigu]

Actions?

You have no clue who you are talking to...

But you surely have no respect and that's sad and DELUDED!

Take great care and chew well

Gassho

Taigu

[Taigu]

Dosho,

A few more things...over the last years you have shown disrespect many times, and now, you are now telling everybody that we, and namely Taigu, have a non compassionate attitude to people with a different sexuality.

Let me get this right:

As a young writer and artist I had all along many dear gay and lesbian friends who passed away because of this f..... Aids epidemic
My best friend, Benoit, a French bloke died because of that shit three years ago
I have chosen as one of my root teachers beyond time and space, Issan Dorsey, the gay drag queen junky who became a Zen abbot
I decided to give Dharma transmission to Dainin Jocko one of the leading figures of the gay movement in Europe and the ex abbot of the Korean Zen center of Paris
I vow to reborn ( if such a thing exists) as a lesbian, a gay, or whoever who does not hurt himself or herself or others and and spread the Dharma as i have been doing for nearly 40 years.


These are my actions, deeds, wishes and my faith!

That's all I have to say and we will do our best for this coming retreat.

As to your mail, sorry to see arrogance and ignorance dancing along with such glee.


Taigu

[Jundo]

Hi Guys,

I detect folks talking past each other a bit. I don't think Dosho was saying that anyone is in any way closed to people who are Transgender or who embody a sexual preference or identity. Far from it, this Sangha is wide open and accepting of all gentle people or all stripes. (the "gentle people" is the only important part).

I think the issue is simply one of general sensitivity during Retreats to people with all manner of special needs and situations. This is a bigger issue in the U.S. Buddhist world (and for all manner or churches and other organizations) than in Europe perhaps, which may be one reason people are not on the same wavelength here. When organizing a Retreat, we should do our best, and take reasonable steps (and more) to accommodate people with physical disabilities (including, for example, the visually and hearing impaired), special health conditions (such as epilepsy), peanut and other allergies, some psychological issues (such as panic disorders) and ... well, great understanding is required. Especially if small steps can be taken without great cost, they are best taken. I do not think this Retreat in Washington has anyone coming who has expressed such special needs or situation, but it happens all the time.

But I also think, Dosho, that maybe you come across as a bit accusatory on the issue here, and there is absolutely no reason to be in this case.

Anyway, I think the discussion not really on point to this thread which is about a truly terrible situation.

Gassho, J

[Dosho]

Taigu,

I honestly apologize for my initial post which was not intended as a challenge to you, but in going over it again today it definitely reads that way. For that, I am very sorry. I was trying to point out that a third option for housing may not be possible given the logistics of the space we are using. My post was intended as a public acknowledgement of that fact. But, as I said, it doesn't read that way and I can see why you reacted as you did.

While not excusing any of my previous mistakes, I would like to clarify the meaning of the term transgendered. While its definition has changed over the years, my understanding of the term is that it does not describe people who are gay or lesbian:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transgender

Although gays and lesbians do challenge traditional gender stereotypes, they are not trying to present themselves as a different gender than what was assigned to them at birth. So, in none of my posts on the topic when I used the term transgender was I including anyone who is gay or lesbian.

I shall think on my numerous errors during our discussions and hopefully bring attention back to the original intent of this thread. I am always at your disposal to discuss this topic to your satisfaction.

With regrets.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Ongen]

I support this wholeheartedly. Just yesterday this picture (below) created hefty discussion on Facebook while it just brought tears to my eyes. My dream is of a world where people can be whoever they are, wherever they are.


Much metta for this project,


Gassho
Vincent




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Yugen]

We are all one - and when we feel anger or frustration or love we must look to ourselves for the root cause.

Language and emotion around basic human rights we all clearly are very committed to diverts us from the common ground we share.

Peace.

Yugen

[Troy]

Call Me Kuchu: For the LGBT Community in Uganda

Let's see what Jesus said about judging and persecuting others:

Mathew 7:1-2 "Do not judge others or you to will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the same measure you use, it will be measured to you"

Mark 12:31 "The most important commandment, ...Love God with all your heart...The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

Mathew 20:28 "the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many" (I am not seeing how persecution and passionately serving others to the point of laying down your life for them means the same thing)

Mathew 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God”

Mathew 5:7 "Blessed are the merciful for they will be shown mercy"

Luke 14:11 "For everyone that exalts himself above others will be humbled and everyones who humbles himself shall be exalted"

The bible has been interpreted to justify all sorts of atrocities through out history. It is time we (Christians) use it to justify love.

[Daitetsu]

Hi Troy,

While I fully agree with you that the main concern of religions and any spiritual practice should be love and compassion, the commandments to love God and to love ones neighbor are senseless IMHO.
Because love cannot be commanded. Love that is commanded is anything but love - true love is genuine, not forced.

If the bible says to love God, because otherwise one will burn in hell for all eternity, it actually puts the believer in a dilemma...

I'd prefer someone saying
"Daitetsu, I really don't like you, but I accept who you are."

over someone saying
"Daitetsu, I love you, because a book/person XY says so."

Please don't take it personally, I just have always found the commandment of love a bit contradictory (and no, not in a Koan-style way)...
(And I don't want to say the other Bible quotes are bad or useless - they are good actually.)

Sorry for getting off-topic, just wanted to add this.

Gassho,

Daitetsu


PS: Just to be clear: I have friends from the LGBT community and would do everything to fight for their acceptance.