[Engaged] Negativity against engaged Buddhism?

[Onka]

I think both suggestions above sound terrific.
Gassho
Anna
st

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[Risho]

I'd be up for that.( I'm also hoping that at some point we read something about women practitioners - although I haven't started it yet, I'd love us to read Grace Schireson's Zen Women as a group,or something else that our women members might like to suggest.)
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday

But Meitou - I can't stand women - ah crap I meant to send that in a private message. hahaha

Seriously I think this would be a fantastic choice!

I was just thinking about Iron Grindstone Liu and the ricecake seller (in the koan about where she asks the Diamond Sutra expert which mind he wants to nourish hunger for). In any case, I don't 'know a lot of female ancestors; that's a problem imho. I'd vote for this one.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Meitou]

Hi all

Given the current discussion and ongoing events in relation to climate change protests, I wonder if David Loy's book Ecodharma, published earlier this year, might be an interesting read for the book club? I imagine we have a range of opinions here. It would also fit well with Meitou's ECO-Life thread.

I wonder if he might he be persuaded to lead another Zazenkai and Q&A session on this topic?

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

I'd be up for that.( I'm also hoping that at some point we read something about women practitioners - although I haven't started it yet, I'd love us to read Grace Schireson's Zen Women as a group,or something else that our women members might like to suggest.)
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday

[Kokuu]

Hi all

Given the current discussion and ongoing events in relation to climate change protests, I wonder if David Loy's book Ecodharma, published earlier this year, might be an interesting read for the book club? I imagine we have a range of opinions here. It would also fit well with Meitou's ECO-Life thread.

I wonder if he might he be persuaded to lead another Zazenkai and Q&A session on this topic?

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Ishin]

Maybe we are getting off the topic of engaged Buddhism in this thread, but I would just like to say that I have differing views on some things than Jundo; some political, some metaphysical,some personal. I am not a big fan of Sumo wrestling, and I think blackberry ice cream is the best flavor. I believe in rebirth, but I try not to act like a born again Buddhist. That being said, none of these things really make a difference when it comes to practice, and I have NEVER felt excluded here, or that my "uniqueness" was somehow making me feel ostracized. I sincerely feel that there has been a friendly attitude to those with various views. However, we are here to practice and study Zen. I do not come here to learn about US immigration policy or Brexit. If anything, in my opinion, when it comes to these issues maybe we ought to be discussing how we can embrace those we do not agree with. Offended Buddhists always seemed to me to be the epitome of an oxymoron.

Gassho
Ishin
Sat/lah

[Kokuu]

I am unabashedly a "Buddhist modernist" who tries to keep the flavor here rather down to earth and coherent in light of modern ideas of lay practice (vs. primarily monastic practice), sexual equality and identity, and a openness to skepticism on ideas of literal rebirth and some of our other wilder legends and beliefs

Hi Jundo

I did not mean to suggest that all aspects of Buddhist modernism are bad or to be avoided, just that there is a concern that one approach becomes seen as the true form of western Buddhism to the exclusion of other flavours as has happened to some extent with the insight meditation tradition and school in north America.

As long as there continues to be sanghas which practice with different styles, this is a good thing. If they all start to have the same politics or view of practice, there is not that diversity to accommodate folk with differing perspectives. That is not to say that we need to agree with everything about a sangha or teacher but it is nice if it feels like home.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jundo]

Nicely said, Kokuu and Jakudan. You have my approval and agreement.

I hope at Treeleaf that we exclude no one for their political stance (although I think we should draw the line at racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia etc which are themselves exclusive). Your practice is your practice and if it is done with compassionate intent then all is well although we may have spirited arguments over the details!

... I hope that anyone here who feels that their views need to be heard for the benefits of others can express them and get heard. I am certainly open to arguments on all sides of most issues (and I am also a Scientist, so I tend to go with anything that has the facts behind it). I am grateful for your willingness to think outside of the box, and those of us that do (that just don't fit into the box!) need to speak up, even if we get pushback sometimes.

Gassho, J

STLah


PS - Maybe one note on Kokuu's comment

"This has been an issue with 'Buddhist modernism' in which a certain flavour of Buddhism is seen as the norm or standard."

That get's a bit tricky, because while there is room for folks to practice a variety of practices and paths that speak to their own heart (e.g., those who practice Zen with or without Christianity or Amida Buddha or vegetarianism or Tonglen) ... at the same time, a Sangha will tend to have a certain style, with the thought that others have other places to practice other styles. So, for example, we practice Shikantaza here in the Soto way, not really in the Rinzai "Koan Introspection Zazen" way or Tibetan or Pure Land way, and I am unabashedly a "Buddhist modernist" who tries to keep the flavor here rather down to earth and coherent in light of modern ideas of lay practice (vs. primarily monastic practice), sexual equality and identity, and a openness to skepticism on ideas of literal rebirth and some of our other wilder legends and beliefs. Even then, on topics such as literal rebirth, I try to maintain a flavor here of "it could be" agnostic skepticism and not shut any doors one way or the other.

[Risho]

Those are damned good points Kokuu - really damned good. But I take exception to old white dudes - speak for yourself!!! ahahah

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Kokuu]

Instead of censoring and prohibiting certain language (like in Communist states), allow all language to be expressed - and especially the language that is crazy - haters are gonna hate, but when that hate language sees the light of reason - people will choose to follow the correct way - naturally people know what is right; they don't need to be policed by a government elite that thinks it knows better. That is dangerous - when we treat people who we perceive are wronged by society as victims, this too is a trap.

I wish this were true, Risho, but the evidence I have seen in terms of research suggests the opposite in that people who engage in hate tend to keep their views to themselves when it is not tolerated by society. However, when it is legitimised through social media platforms, political debate and the language of our politicians, this causes a rise in the level of hate in society in general who feel emboldened and part of the norm.

This is, as I say, what I believe to be true from the evidence but you or others may know of contrary research.

As with political stances, most people believe that there is a limit to free speech in terms of what can be said without consequence but have different places where they put the limits.

The far-right likes to talk about free speech but part of that is a justification in allowing both hate speech and the ability to bully other viewpoints out of what they like to call 'the marketplace of ideas'. However, the left is also guilty of no-platforming people who have legitimate points to make.

There is also the point that allowing free speech does not affect everyone equally. As older white dudes born in rich countries, we are not likely to be targeted with hate speech or affected by it. Anti-immigrant speech in the UK has, however, made life incredibly uncomfortable for a number of migrant communities just as speech of a racist, homophobic, transphobic etc nature will affect those minorities. For me there has to be a balance between allowing people to say what they want and leaving people vulnerable. Just because people like me have little to fear from 'free speech' (which sadly sometimes is little more than a seemingly philosophically sounding rationale for engaging in abusive language), that is not true across the board.

People also differ in their susceptibility to speech which seeks to cause religious, racial or other divisions and it is well known that groups such as ISIS and other terror organisations seek out vulnerable people who already feel ostracised by society for recruitment purposes. Younger people are also often seduced by idealistic sounding causes and struggles coupled with a lack of the ability to understand the precise consequences of what they are being drawn into. In these cases, there is potentially a role for protecting them against certain modes of speech seeking to arouse hatred.

I am not in any way saying that I know where the free speech line should be drawn but just putting a few arguments against why there should be limits controlled by law rather than a free-for-all which is not conducted on a level playing field. Sometimes government does know better as it is in contact with policing organisations who can see the real life consequences of allowing certain forms of speech. However, I can also understand the fear of allowing governments to decide where to set the limits as that is open to being guided by their own political philosophy rather than evidenced-based policy.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Risho]

I really love this discussion; Kokuu and Jakuden -- precisely! I come from a different perspective about monastic vs. lay - again just differences of opinion, not right or wrong, and I'm wrong mostly so I may change. hahah

I think the foundation of an enlightened society is free speech. I also think in Dogen's time a monastic setting was necessary because the "outer" world was too chaotic with all the warring going on - rogue samurai and so on. I mean medieval times were not all turkey thighs and jousting contests. hahah

That being said - I think the reason why Treeleaf is so awesome - is that in our "outer" world, there is chaos, but it's in more of the intellectual realm hopefully and at least for us in the Western World; it's a war of words. The political spectrum is like a bell curve; most people fall in the middle and are moderates, like myself (believe it or not I'm not conservative, but I'm probably more conservative than some); in any case, the most vociferous of people on the internets (and especially the toxic social media sites) are extreme left or right; so it appears that everything is in chaos. So I would say to me the role of Sangha in our day and age is to allow that open forum of dialogue - we can all express our crazy views and truly grow. I mean I don't know anywhere else on the internet (or even a dinner table) where we can do that. It's incredible.

I think inclusivity is such an interesting topic too. I feel like we are focused as a society on inclusivity of race, gender, etc, but we need to also be focused on inclusivity of thought. Instead of censoring and prohibiting certain language (like in Communist states), allow all language to be expressed - and especially the language that is crazy - haters are gonna hate, but when that hate language sees the light of reason - people will choose to follow the correct way - naturally people know what is right; they don't need to be policed by a government elite that thinks it knows better. That is dangerous - when we treat people who we perceive are wronged by society as victims, this too is a trap. We are well meaning, but elitism is a slippery and dangerous slope.

But speaking of inclusivity - exclusivity is also important; if it weren't, there wouldn't be Unsui and Lay and Preists and Transmitted - it's because reality is what it is that we have those things.

I'd much rather have transmission be excluded to those who are deserving; simultaneously everyone needs to be included in the ability to try to be a priest, etc. and should not be prevented from that path based on anything - well unless they want to hate, etc.

Anyhow - thank you guys.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Jakuden]

Yes wise words Kokuu!

Risho, the reason I recommended a Zen Retreat was most definitely not to imply lay practice as inferior. It is just that it is a better answer to "What is Zen" then can easily be given here on a forum. Yes in some ways it is Borg-like! And if there is resistance to dropping our individual identity and views, then that is a place to practice. That's an important aspect of Zen.

But I meant it when I said I often have similar dialogue in my head to what you wrote. When it comes up though, I am learning to question the motive. Am I not liking what this teacher is saying because I think he/she is preaching and it rubs me the wrong way? Is it because I am attached to my own views and/or my perceived identity? Or is it truly in the spirit of Right Intention, that I have a different view that I feel is important to promote on behalf of other beings? If that is the case, then I agree that we should be totally free to express and discuss it within the Zen context. And I too sometimes feel that those views do not get heard. Zen is an institution and the wheels turn slowly. Inclusiveness of views is more progressive in Zen than many other institutions, but there are some viewpoints that it still resists hearing, IMHO out of an existential fear of "not being Zen anymore." I hope that anyone here who feels that their views need to be heard for the benefits of others can express them and get heard. I am certainly open to arguments on all sides of most issues (and I am also a Scientist, so I tend to go with anything that has the facts behind it). I am grateful for your willingness to think outside of the box, and those of us that do (that just don't fit into the box!) need to speak up, even if we get pushback sometimes.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Jishin]

As regards being contrary, this can be useful if it allows different views to be heard.

However, it is also worth bearing in mind that reflexively always agreeing or always disagreeing with a position are basically two sides of the same coin, depending on whether you want to be approved of or seen as an outsider, and seeking to provoke harmony or conflict for one's own ends.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

On a more serious note I fully agree with you. Wise words.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jishin]

As regards being contrary, this can be useful if it allows different views to be heard.

However, it is also worth bearing in mind that reflexively always agreeing or always disagreeing with a position are basically two sides of the same coin, depending on whether you want to be approved of or seen as an outsider, and seeking to provoke harmony or conflict for one's own ends.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

I disagree. [emoji3]

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Kokuu]

As regards being contrary, this can be useful if it allows different views to be heard.

However, it is also worth bearing in mind that reflexively always agreeing or always disagreeing with a position are basically two sides of the same coin, depending on whether you want to be approved of or seen as an outsider, and seeking to provoke harmony or conflict for one's own ends.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Kokuu]

Zen should be big enough for us all to practice here without fear of reprisal from following some ideology. That's really it

I think this is very true, Risho, and Zen does cut itself off from whole groups of people if in the west Buddhist ethics are equated with so-called progressive politics. This has been an issue with 'Buddhist modernism' in which a certain flavour of Buddhism is seen as the norm or standard.

As you say there are arguments for and against government-run healthcare (as someone living in a country with socialised healthcare I have my own views but they may not apply to a different place) and regulating environmental impacts has an effect on short-term economic trade which can mean real people lose their jobs.

It is perhaps understandable that Zen and Buddhism in the west tends to attract more hippy types who are keen on caring/sharing approaches but someone can also come from a conservative viewpoint of self-responsibility and the importance of being tough on crime and not lack compassion. As a parent I know that love and compassion has to feature sticks as well as carrots.

Very few people want uncontrolled immigration and very few want absolutely no immigration whatsoever. The difference is where our priorities are and where we draw the line. It is similar with spending on the military, welfare payments, criminal sentencing etc. I imagine that most people would love to see a world in which we don't need an army to protect us yet know that leaving any country defenceless is a very very bad idea in practice.

I hope at Treeleaf that we exclude no one for their political stance (although I think we should draw the line at racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia etc which are themselves exclusive). Your practice is your practice and if it is done with compassionate intent then all is well although we may have spirited arguments over the details!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-