Ecodharma: An Alternative Last Chapter, written by Jundo

[Tokan]

Yep - I'm not a referee around here, but I agree the tone of this thread is not our usual friendly way, let's remember we are here to support each others practice - lord knows we have enough challenges on our own without feeling uncomfortable here. May we all realise the enlightened way together!

Gassho, Tokan (satlah)

[Jishin]

May I humbly ask why are you chastising us this way for a topic which is really not that consequential which way who agrees on? These are opinions after all, and by their nature they evolve or get corrected as time passes and experience increases.

I am quite sad at how the tone of conversations in this forum has changed in the last two weeks.

Really sad. I will take a break now from conversations for some time and just sit. Life has bigger challenges than defending opinions.

Gassho.

sat.

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

The discussion of the unfair treatment of a class of citizens is extremely pertinent. I find it appalling that students of eastern philosophy are so willing to crucify this minority without understanding their situation better.

I am sorry you find this discussion difficult.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Jundo]

Let's keep it friendly and civil, even if these are difficult topics. Thank you.

We don't usually discuss politics and social policy in the Sangha, but since the issue is Global Warming, there is a bit more leeway here to do so.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[bayamo]

The discussion of the unfair treatment of a class of citizens is extremely pertinent. I find it appalling that students of eastern philosophy are so willing to crucify this minority without understanding their situation better.

I am sorry you find this discussion difficult.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[emoji122][emoji122][emoji122] well said... it's always easier to find a group of people to blame for problems and make them the scapegoat instead of looking at ones conduct and culpability in the current state of things...
#sattoday

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[Meian]

I really don't understand jew fanbois. I really don't understand immigrant fanbois. I really don't understand black fanbois.
Is my comment any different than yours?

Targeting one's racial, religious, and national identity (etc.) is racist, bigoted, and discriminatory.

I've stayed quiet due to the growing tensions here -- but I must speak on this.

It has already been established that billionaires come from all backgrounds, and that wealth itself is not evil -- how it is used (or not) sometimes is.

What this thread has degenerated to is not what we're about here. This is not who/what Treeleaf is, and never has been.

Please *stop* -- we're not a social media forum to one-up each other. We're a Soto Zen sangha that is *global* and devoted to practice -- One humanity learning The Way.

The Precepts apply here also -- they apply everywhere. [emoji120][emoji120][emoji120]

My apologies for many words.

Gassho, meian stlh
(who needs to rest)

[Ryumon]

Suggesting that billionaires are a protected class is ridiculous.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/equality-act/protected-characteristics

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

[Kokuu]

Stop looking for a group to blame, butch up and take responsibility for your lot in life. No one else to blame but yourself

This is indeed the view of Zen, or at least half of it. We take personal responsibility for our actions and their consequences.

However, in Zen we also recognise that everything is subject to causes and conditions, and opportunity and station in life is not handed out equally.

How do we deal with both of these things being true?

We take personal responsibility for our own actions but also treat others with compassion, recognising that other factors can be complicit in making their lives as they are. We are often not in a position to judge for ourselves why people are in the position they find themselves in, whether they are rich, poor, of whatever ethnicity or social status. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't act well and take care of our health and finances, but it also doesn't mean that we should judge people based on where they find themselves.

The idea of a 'just world' in which people get what they deserve is seductive, and appeals to our sense of being in control. One of the sixteen Zen precepts that we observe here is to refrain from praising oneself and judging others. This is important to bear in mind.

As others have pointed out, this is a Zendo, not social media, and we expect everyone to treat each other with compassion and respect. Conduct is equally as important as what we say, if not more so.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Ryumon]

Since we’re talking about climate, here’s how billionaires (as part of the richest 1%) disproportionately affect our climate:

https://news.sky.com/story/the-worlds-richest-are-plundering-the-planet-billionaires-huge-carbon-footprints-prompt-call-for-action-12460623

And this is from a British TV channel owned by Rupert Murdoch, who is very much against mitigating climate change.


Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

[bayamo]

Suggesting that billionaires are a protected class is ridiculous.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/equality-act/protected-characteristics

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

So they aren't protected and it's open season, you can attack and demean at will? Everyone should be free from attacks.
#sattoday

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[Koushi]

Although the post's contents are quoted, and I am not in favor of mincing words in most cases, I have removed the post in reference due to its more targeted nature.

Please, although a topic of discussion can be heated, it must remain civil. Forum or not, this is a Zen sangha, and there are lines we should keep in focus when talking to one another.

Thank you,

Gassho,
koushi
STLaH

[Shinshi]

Guys, this is going nowhere. I know that Jundo says more leeway in this thread but lets try to not get too attached to being "right" and getting in the last word.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Doshin]

My disappointment grows.

Peace

Doshin
St

[Jundo]

We really need to tone this down, maintain civil calm discussion if it is going to happen. As I said, a little more leeway here because it is a discussion on Global Warming and social policy, but please do not abuse the leeway. Soft tones and polite words, please, even as you make your desired reasonable point.

I think I understand Bayamo was just trying to be ironic, not literal. However, it still was right to delete the comment. Let's stay calm and low key please.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Dogukan]

Although this post will contain some of my personal feelings, I will try to use the language very carefully. We really need to conduct this discussion more civilly.

So, I am the son of two retired workers. My father worked for decades in a warehouse. He has a neck hernia now. My mother worked in a garment factory. She cannot see anything without glasses now. They worked hard, they gained nothing except the food they needed to survive. So, should they blame themselves? Should have they been more innovative and smart? They had the chance to become Tesla, and did they turn it down? I live in a country where the current global system labelled it as "developing" - which means, regardless of my qualifications, I will earn less than my colleagues in a developed country. But, again, that also must have something to do with my personal effort. Even from the Zen viewpoint, that would be a wrong approach. Wouldn't it? We should not intermingle the relative with the absolute. These are the truths of my relative, material world. And there is someone to blame for all these things. They have the power to resolve these problems, and they prefer not to solve them for their profits.

The links sent by Ryumon sum up the situation pretty well. And, for seven months we've already read and talked about the damage done by big companies to nature. (To remember again, the whole conversation is about ecology & dharma) I suppose, I only suppose that almost everyone would like to see at least some justice in the distribution of wealth. No need to be a red for that. Extreme wealth is against this basic moral, human demand. No one is talking about burning them at the stake. Therefore, I must admit that I had a really hard time understanding the accusations that go as far as racism. Please help me see the relevance.

Gassho, Doğukan
Sat.

[Jishin]

I think we need more billionaires. The more, the merrier.

If not born a billionaire, the only way to become one is to find a way to decrease people’s suffering.

If born a billionaire, the only way to remain so is to keep the capital invested or the wealth is taxed into nonexistence. Capital that is invested decreases society’s suffering.

The employee earning minimum wage contributes minimally to the economy and does little to decrease the suffering of his unemployed fellow humans.

Billionaires employ legends of beings and do untold good.



Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH