Ecodharma: An Alternative Last Chapter, written by Jundo

[Jishin]

Ecodharma: An Alternative Last Chapter, written by Jundo

No comment on this one way or another, except that this appeared in my inbox yesterday. I really don't care how billionaires acquired their capital, by their own work or inheritance. The Buddha remind us that we all stand on the shoulders of each other, so there is no true solo "pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps." Also, he advised even the wealthy to be ethical and fair in their work and treatment of others, and to use their wealth well and for good.

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Gassho, J

STLah

Money is a tool that all of us use. It is a fallacy to assume that each of us need a predetermined amount for our daily needs and no more or no less.

Greed is bad but it is the glue that keeps the world going. Without greed no one would work.

True communism has never been tried but I submit it would not work because of human nature. Greed would keep people from sharing equally.

Capitalism is not perfect but it is the system that works best. A byproduct of this system is accumulation of wealth by a lucky and talented few.

The capital of billionaires does not lay dormant. It works round the clock employing multitudes and decreasing suffering.

I find students of eastern philosophy frequently oblivious to the fact that capitalism is in fact the best system available to date based upon their misguided belief that socialism or communism is better. In theory socialism and communism are better but they ignore reality: humans are greedy and need material incentive to get out of bed. Look to history for guidance.

An American doctor who goes to school for 24 years and owes $400,000 at the end of training will require several luxury cars, 2 homes and multiple vacations per year just to keep from burning out and quitting her job. For her efforts she will demand at least $300,000 per year. If she does not quit her job at the end of her career she will have saved many lives and retire with $10,000,000 if savvy with her money.

Is $10,000,000 too much to have in the bank for one person? Apparently not because we don’t have enough doctors in the USA.

I think that next time we complain about someone having too much money we should try to walk in their shoes for a mile.

My wife and I are physicians and we drive Teslas. They are luxurious but are green energy. I am more than happy to contribute to Elon Musk’s 245 billion fortune as he is doing something very significant for the planet. For one, I arrive at work more refreshed and ready to see patients with the help of his products.

What can I say about Amazon? Without this wonderful company I wouldn’t be able to take care of my patients.

I invest heavily in Amazon and Tesla and in all kinds of other companies that do good work for me and for the world.

Again, I like to point out our propensity to project our faults onto others. There are always fingers pointing back when pointing fingers.

Jundo, you are a great teacher but god almighty there are some dense people around and I guess that is just who we are as humans.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Dogukan]

Well, one can take the argument even further. Both Vimalakirti and Hatano were rich men in a different economic system, based mainly on the plantation, that is, slavery. So, what would Soto Zen be today if there were no slavery?

Gassho, Doğukan.
Sat.

[Tokan]

My goodness, this thread has certainly stimulated my brain more effectively than an electric electrode to the head designed to stop me being dualistic!

I had hoped that we (the royal we) would wake up, not just to climate change and xenophobia, but to the deeper issues that drive all of this in the first place. The billionaire toy maker gets rich because we buy $2 toys by the ship-load, then toss them into the land or sea, only to buy the next one and do the same. This is not who we are, but it seems that this is how we want to express ourselves. If we really believe in the wholeness or oneness of all things, differentiated in time or matter, then it should both matter and not-matter if humanity passes into galactic history, to be replaced one day by the next self-aware species. We are special, but we aren't that special. We received the gifts of consciousness, awareness, and a degree of self-determination, and it nows seems that we have squandered that. Though I still hold some hope for the future, we are moving too slow, pulling in two directions at once. Here in New Zealand, allegedly one of the 'greenest purest' places on earth, the government has just given the go ahead for further fossil fuel exploration because "there is insufficient evidence that the mining or extraction that may follow the exploration with have a significant impact on climate change". I was, quite simply, dumbfounded.

In my mind, it now seems that our only hope is to invest just as much in adaptive climate technology as in reversal of climate change. I'd love to see more windfarms, but too many people don't want them spoiling the view - HELLO! How about a wildfire or 1 in 1000 year flood spoiling your view? But this is how we behave. Great human suffering is ahead of us. I can only be faithful to my bodhisattva vows. The global adoption of Buddhism could make a difference as Nishijima Roshi suggested, but in reality just look at what Buddhism has become in some countries. Anything run by people can be corrupted. Now, global adoption of Treeleaf, now that would be a different matter, might make the forums a bit challenging though

Electro-convulsive therapy, implants to prevent epileptic seizures, pacemakers, and my father just had a form of chemotherapy that reprogrammed his immune system to not just kill the cancer, but to kill it everytime it rears its head. In mental health we give monthly injections to the more seriously ill to prevent illness, what if a chip in the brain could remove the need to have these injections? They'd never need see a psychiatrist again in their life. As always, the challenge is not the technology, but our use of it. If a person wished to consent to a radical new form of treatment then I believe they should have this choice. Governments forcing these changes on us? Not so sure given what just happened in the US.

One things for sure, I never thought I would live past the threat of nuclear war in the 70's and 80's, for humanity to be in the state it is in now. Yet there is still hope.


Gassho all, and respect for all opinions expressed.

Tokan (satlah)

[Naiko]

This is very interesting. Jundo, I can’t decide if your idea is impossibly optimistic (in your faith that humans could actually pull it off), or impossibly cynical (in that my teacher thinks humans are so flawed they must be drugged and/or genetically modified into good behavior!)..

I think there is a danger in placing hope in future solutions. I think this is humanity’s greatest strength-faith, hope, daring to imagine. It’s also our fatal flaw. We live for the future and always believe in tomorrow, like Scarlett O’Hara. What happens when we run out of tomorrows? We also mythologize the idea of a white hat wearing hero riding in to save the day. It’s more compelling to us than a story of many anonymous people all doing their part. It primes us to give up our power to a few. I agree with Kokuu’s skepticism of ‘white hat’ billionaires. They’re only out for themselves.

Sadly, I don’t think we have 50-100 years to work this out. We are 50-60 years behind in our response. We need to get to 45% of current emissions by 2040, but are projected to increase them by 14% or more. It’s a shame because solutions and technologies that could greatly ease our situation exist right now, and have existed for decades (or longer: electric vehicles existed over 100 years ago). What we do now, what we do next, matters.
Gassho,
Naiko
st

[Prashanth]

How would a world without billionaires or capitalism look like?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

nobody said they shouldn't exist. Its just that when people aspire to be like them, they tend to forget or forgive many negatives too.
They should exist, and also should exist those who remind them that they can do bigger and better things to make the world a better place.

"Isms" don't make the world a better or worse place; people who stick to them do. So far, we are yet to come to an "ism" which is agreed by all and also does only good. Calling people "dense" just because they see something differently, isn't really selling anything. I'd rather be dense quite happily as long as I can sit quietly in that density and lightness of being.


gassho.

sat.

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Well, one can take the argument even further. Both Vimalakirti and Hatano were rich men in a different economic system, based mainly on the plantation, that is, slavery. So, what would Soto Zen be today if there were no slavery?

Gassho, Doğukan.
Sat.

That is absolutely true, even many monasteries owned slaves, and there are rules in the Vinaya and temple regulations for their good treatment. Folks in modern times needs to realize that the old days were just different, old ... no matter how we judge social values from our current perspective. Social values do change, and we should be happy that some things have changed:

http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-MISC/misc570463.pdf

and

http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/SILK/Silk_Ency%20Buddhism%20Slavery.pdf

Also, this is very interesting:

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/did-the-buddha-allow-slaves-to-be-used-by-the-sangha/19426

Of course, I fear that future folks will use this new technology to enslave the masses, and the "white hats" must work to prevent that! In a sense, it has already happened, as we are made passive slaves of consumerism, entranced by our phones and other entertainments, working in the factories to buy what the factories produce ... kept fat and docile.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

I think there is a danger in placing hope in future solutions.

Isn't much of Buddhism built on precisely that: the idea that enlightenment and salvation is bound to come in the future? And is not the Buddha the ultimate symbol of the man in the "white hat"?

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

Ecodharma: An Alternative Last Chapter, written by Jundo

nobody said they shouldn't exist. Its just that when people aspire to be like them, they tend to forget or forgive many negatives too.
They should exist, and also should exist those who remind them that they can do bigger and better things to make the world a better place.

"Isms" don't make the world a better or worse place; people who stick to them do. So far, we are yet to come to an "ism" which is agreed by all and also does only good. Calling people "dense" just because they see something differently, isn't really selling anything. I'd rather be dense quite happily as long as I can sit quietly in that density and lightness of being.


gassho.

sat.

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

That's good. Then say what you mean: billionaires should exist, are good and are necessary.

If I understand you correctly, we should remind billionaires how to run their lifes and businesses? Say this sentence out loud and listen to yourself saying it so you can hear how crazy it sounds.

If you see the Buddha, please kill him. You are terribly attached to Buddha.

I am terribly deluded but I know so. Do you know this about yourself?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Jundo]

... we should remind billionaires how to run their lifes and businesses?

Yes, it is called the law ... laws to prevent labor, environmental, tax evasion and countless other abuses. Sadly, many of these laws are too weak right now, or do not work well across international borders.

And also, many of the values of excess consumption and luxury, materialism and selfishness represented by some of their lifestyles should not be as celebrated.

Gassho, J

STlah

[Naiko]

Isn't much of Buddhism built on precisely that: the idea that enlightenment and salvation is bound to come in the future? And is not the Buddha the ultimate symbol of the man in the "white hat"?

Gassho, J

STLah

Well, I don’t know. I thought Buddhanature/enlightenment is here now and that Buddha said we are responsible for ourselves or we kill the Buddha when we meet him/her/they?
Gassho,
Naiko
st

[Jundo]

I think that this video may be interesting, although outside the Zen tradition. It describes, perhaps, the "baseline" on simplicity of austerity by the truly strict monk, and what they "need" for life, and do not need in order to be free of attachments.

Now, a caution: This was never the path for all people, and lay folks were not expected to live a life of such extremes. However, even so, lay folks were encouraged to lead a lifestyle as simple, bare bone, non-attached (not the same as being detached, by the way, especially in family life) and austere as possible. In fact, is this not a lesson too regarding consumerism and the environment, regarding how we could all live more simply, consuming less?

Are not these practices, as well, 2000 year old "technology" to change the human heart and mind?

Again, I am in -no way- encouraging most people to live like this. I would not choose such way, nor do I feel it is the best way to live or most healthful for most, or for society as a whole. (In fact, the practice extremes described in this video ... such as not reclining to sleep, or not accepting a second helping of food ... were/are considered too extreme, and rejected, even by most South Asian monks, and likely by the Buddha, so the video describes a minority, radical view. However, even "ordinary" monks are not to live extravagantly, even if they are allowed to accept a gift robe rather than one literally made of rags.)

Finally, I think one can disregard the very literal depictions of rebirth and various wonderous mental powers described in the video. However, the basic premise that being non-attached to desires, and living simply with few and moderate needs, remains at the heart of Buddhism and its view of liberation ... even in the Zen schools.

https://youtu.be/tXHDfllo2tA

Gassho, J

STLah

Sorry to run long

[Jishin]

Yes, it is called the law ... laws to prevent labor, environmental, tax evasion and countless other abuses. Sadly, many of these laws are too weak right now, or do not work well across international borders.

And also, many of the values of excess consumption and luxury, materialism and selfishness represented by some of their lifestyles should not be as celebrated.

Gassho, J

STlah

Abuse is something humans are good at. Why single out the rich?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Jundo]

Abuse is something humans are good at. Why single out the rich?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

Nobody should abuse others, or themselves. That includes the poor if abusing in poor way, and the rich if they abuse in rich ways.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

Nobody should abuse others, or themselves. That includes the poor if abusing in poor way, and the rich if they abuse in rich ways.

Gassho, J

STLah

I agree with this this wholeheartedly. The middle way. I just wish that students of eastern philosophy weren’t so quick to judge a person based upon their net worth.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Prashanth]

That's good. Then say what you mean: billionaires should exist, are good and are necessary.

If I understand you correctly, we should remind billionaires how to run their lifes and businesses? Say this sentence out loud and listen to yourself saying it so you can hear how crazy it sounds.

If you see the Buddha, please kill him. You are terribly attached to Buddha.

I am terribly deluded but I know so. Do you know this about yourself?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

May I humbly ask why are you chastising us this way for a topic which is really not that consequential which way who agrees on? These are opinions after all, and by their nature they evolve or get corrected as time passes and experience increases.

I am quite sad at how the tone of conversations in this forum has changed in the last two weeks.

Really sad. I will take a break now from conversations for some time and just sit. Life has bigger challenges than defending opinions.

Gassho.

sat.

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