Ecodharma: An Alternative Last Chapter, written by Jundo

[Tokan]

My goodness, this thread has certainly stimulated my brain more effectively than an electric electrode to the head designed to stop me being dualistic!

I had hoped that we (the royal we) would wake up, not just to climate change and xenophobia, but to the deeper issues that drive all of this in the first place. The billionaire toy maker gets rich because we buy $2 toys by the ship-load, then toss them into the land or sea, only to buy the next one and do the same. This is not who we are, but it seems that this is how we want to express ourselves. If we really believe in the wholeness or oneness of all things, differentiated in time or matter, then it should both matter and not-matter if humanity passes into galactic history, to be replaced one day by the next self-aware species. We are special, but we aren't that special. We received the gifts of consciousness, awareness, and a degree of self-determination, and it nows seems that we have squandered that. Though I still hold some hope for the future, we are moving too slow, pulling in two directions at once. Here in New Zealand, allegedly one of the 'greenest purest' places on earth, the government has just given the go ahead for further fossil fuel exploration because "there is insufficient evidence that the mining or extraction that may follow the exploration with have a significant impact on climate change". I was, quite simply, dumbfounded.

In my mind, it now seems that our only hope is to invest just as much in adaptive climate technology as in reversal of climate change. I'd love to see more windfarms, but too many people don't want them spoiling the view - HELLO! How about a wildfire or 1 in 1000 year flood spoiling your view? But this is how we behave. Great human suffering is ahead of us. I can only be faithful to my bodhisattva vows. The global adoption of Buddhism could make a difference as Nishijima Roshi suggested, but in reality just look at what Buddhism has become in some countries. Anything run by people can be corrupted. Now, global adoption of Treeleaf, now that would be a different matter, might make the forums a bit challenging though

Electro-convulsive therapy, implants to prevent epileptic seizures, pacemakers, and my father just had a form of chemotherapy that reprogrammed his immune system to not just kill the cancer, but to kill it everytime it rears its head. In mental health we give monthly injections to the more seriously ill to prevent illness, what if a chip in the brain could remove the need to have these injections? They'd never need see a psychiatrist again in their life. As always, the challenge is not the technology, but our use of it. If a person wished to consent to a radical new form of treatment then I believe they should have this choice. Governments forcing these changes on us? Not so sure given what just happened in the US.

One things for sure, I never thought I would live past the threat of nuclear war in the 70's and 80's, for humanity to be in the state it is in now. Yet there is still hope.


Gassho all, and respect for all opinions expressed.

Tokan (satlah)

[Dogukan]

Well, one can take the argument even further. Both Vimalakirti and Hatano were rich men in a different economic system, based mainly on the plantation, that is, slavery. So, what would Soto Zen be today if there were no slavery?

Gassho, Doğukan.
Sat.

[Jishin]

Ecodharma: An Alternative Last Chapter, written by Jundo

No comment on this one way or another, except that this appeared in my inbox yesterday. I really don't care how billionaires acquired their capital, by their own work or inheritance. The Buddha remind us that we all stand on the shoulders of each other, so there is no true solo "pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps." Also, he advised even the wealthy to be ethical and fair in their work and treatment of others, and to use their wealth well and for good.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]7722[/ATTACH]

Gassho, J

STLah

Money is a tool that all of us use. It is a fallacy to assume that each of us need a predetermined amount for our daily needs and no more or no less.

Greed is bad but it is the glue that keeps the world going. Without greed no one would work.

True communism has never been tried but I submit it would not work because of human nature. Greed would keep people from sharing equally.

Capitalism is not perfect but it is the system that works best. A byproduct of this system is accumulation of wealth by a lucky and talented few.

The capital of billionaires does not lay dormant. It works round the clock employing multitudes and decreasing suffering.

I find students of eastern philosophy frequently oblivious to the fact that capitalism is in fact the best system available to date based upon their misguided belief that socialism or communism is better. In theory socialism and communism are better but they ignore reality: humans are greedy and need material incentive to get out of bed. Look to history for guidance.

An American doctor who goes to school for 24 years and owes $400,000 at the end of training will require several luxury cars, 2 homes and multiple vacations per year just to keep from burning out and quitting her job. For her efforts she will demand at least $300,000 per year. If she does not quit her job at the end of her career she will have saved many lives and retire with $10,000,000 if savvy with her money.

Is $10,000,000 too much to have in the bank for one person? Apparently not because we don’t have enough doctors in the USA.

I think that next time we complain about someone having too much money we should try to walk in their shoes for a mile.

My wife and I are physicians and we drive Teslas. They are luxurious but are green energy. I am more than happy to contribute to Elon Musk’s 245 billion fortune as he is doing something very significant for the planet. For one, I arrive at work more refreshed and ready to see patients with the help of his products.

What can I say about Amazon? Without this wonderful company I wouldn’t be able to take care of my patients.

I invest heavily in Amazon and Tesla and in all kinds of other companies that do good work for me and for the world.

Again, I like to point out our propensity to project our faults onto others. There are always fingers pointing back when pointing fingers.

Jundo, you are a great teacher but god almighty there are some dense people around and I guess that is just who we are as humans.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Bion]

Ecodharma: An Alternative Last Chapter, written by Jundo

Many of the Buddha's students and supporters were wealthy and powerful people who donated the land and other means to build the monasteries and feed the Sangha. Capital is a gift to be used for the greater weal. In South Asian Buddhism, the historical Buddha's advice to lay people is contained words like these (Sigalovada Sutta):



This was continued in Mahayana Buddhism with the image of individuals such as the great Vimalakirti, the wealthy and wise lay person who bested in Wisdom all the Arhats and Bodhisattvas ...



There have always been rich and powerful people. The most important question is how they earn and use those riches for good, and how they treat others. It does not matter whether that person is an ancient Indian king or a modern Silicon Valley investor.

Gassho, J

STLah

That’s why I brought him up! [emoji1] Thank you! [emoji1374] Who knows what Soto Zen would be like today, or if Treeleaf would exist had it not been for the money and influence of Yoshisige Hatano, who gave master Dogen the land to build Eiheiji on.

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Jundo]

Didn’t we just spend months studying the Sutra of one filthy rich yet well respected layman called Vimalakirti? … [emoji3526]

Many of the Buddha's students and supporters were wealthy and powerful people who donated the land and other means to build the monasteries and feed the Sangha. Capital is a gift to be used for the greater weal. In South Asian Buddhism, the historical Buddha's advice to lay people is contained in words like these (Sigalovada Sutta):

The wise endowed with virtue
Shine forth like a burning fire,
Gathering wealth as bees do honey
And heaping it up like an ant hill.
Once wealth is accumulated,
Family and household life may follow.

By dividing wealth into four parts,
True friendships are bound;
One part should be enjoyed;
Two parts invested in business;
And the fourth set aside
Against future misfortunes."

...

"In five ways should workers and servants as the lower direction be respected by an employer: by allocating work according to aptitude, providing wages and food, looking after the sick, sharing special treats, and giving reasonable time off work.

"And, workers and servants so respected reciprocate with compassion in five ways: being willing to start early and finish late when necessary, taking only what is given, doing work well, and promoting a good reputation."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...31.0.ksw0.html

This was continued in Mahayana Buddhism with the image of individuals such as the great Vimalakirti, the wealthy and wise lay person who bested in Wisdom all the Arhats and Bodhisattvas ...

At that time in the great city of Vaishali there was a rich man named Vimalakirti. Already in the past he had offered alms to immeasurable numbers of Buddhas, had deeply planted the roots of goodness, and had grasped the truth of birthlessness. Unhindered in his eloquence, able to disport himself with transcendental powers, he commanded full retention of the teachings and had attained the state of fearlessness. He had overcome the torments and ill will of the devil and entered deeply into the doctrine of the Law, proficient in the paramita of wisdom and a master in the employing of expedient means. He had successfully fulfilled his great vow and could clearly discern how the minds of others were tending. Moreover, he could distinguish whether their capacities were keen or obtuse. His mind was cleansed and purified through long practice of the Buddha Way, firm in its grasp of the Great Vehicle, and all his actions were well thought out and planned. He maintained the dignity and authority of a Buddha, and his mind was vast as the sea. All the Buddhas sighed with admiration, and he commanded the respect of the disciplies, of Indra, Brahma, and the Four Heavenly Kings.

Desiring to save others, he employed the excellent expedient of residing in Vaishali. His immeasurable riches he used to relieve the poor, his faultless observation of the precepts served as a reproach to those who would violate prohibitions. Through his restraint and forbearance he warned others against rage and anger, and his great assiduousness discouraged all thought of sloth and indolence. Concentrating his single mind in quiet meditation, he suppressed disordered thoughts; through firm and unwavering wisdom he overcame all that was not wise.

There have always been rich and powerful people. The most important question is how they earn and use those riches for good, and how they treat others. It does not matter whether that person is an ancient Indian king or a modern Silicon Valley investor.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bion]

No comment on this one way or another, except that this appeared in my inbox yesterday. I really don't care how billionaires acquired their capital, by their own work or inheritance. The Buddha remind us that we all stand on the shoulders of each other, so there is no true solo "pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps." Also, he advised even the wealthy to be ethical and fair in their work and treatment of others, and to use their wealth well and for good.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]7722[/ATTACH]

Gassho, J

STLah

Didn’t we just spend months studying the Sutra of one filthy rich yet well respected layman called Vimalakirti? … [emoji3526]


[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Jundo]

How would a world without billionaires or capitalism look like?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

No comment on this one way or another, except that this appeared in my inbox yesterday. I really don't care how billionaires acquired their capital, by their own work or inheritance. The Buddha remind us that we all stand on the shoulders of each other, so there is no true solo "pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps." Also, he advised even the wealthy to be ethical and fair in their work and treatment of others, and to use their wealth well and for good.

tsuku.jpg

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

As is the aspiration, so is the role model.

Gassho.

sat.

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

How would a world without billionaires or capitalism look like?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Prashanth]

I really don’t understand billionaire fanbois.


Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

As is the aspiration, so is the role model.

Gassho.

sat.

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

[Jishin]

I really don’t understand billionaire fanbois.


Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

That's an excellent start.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Ryumon]

Ecodharma: An Alternative Last Chapter, written by Jundo

many billionaires have been dirt poor

I really don’t understand billionaire fanbois.


Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

[Bion]

Well you can, you can argue it's not a terribly helpful comment, nor is it terribly kind but there you go.

Well, to me a good advice is good advice, whether blunt, dry or unpleasant to hear. Most of the time we are so busy being emotional about stuff that we just can’t see beyond that. If anything, Jishin is pointing to a basic truth we conveniently choose to overlook: our decisions put in action ( our karma ) are the trigger for everything else that happens after that, whether controlled or not, direct or indirect, expected or not, pleasant or unpleasant.

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Jishin]

Well you can, you can argue it's not a terribly helpful comment, nor is it terribly kind but there you go.


So it seems this essay is discussing a transhumanist approach to tackling climate change. I'm not too well read on transhumanism but it seems there are two main areas for discussion. The ethical and the practical.

Judging from how I've seen this debate go elsewhere in the forum after the essay was cross-posted, I will steer clear of the ethical only to say I disagree.

As to the practical I also have my doubts. I share Kokuu's doubts about these white hat good guy billionaires. Let's not forget that in the last few years, while people died and lost their livelihoods to Covid, our richest men (yes, sadly all men) were sending themselves on pleasure flights to space.

I recognise that this essay was written in pain and frustration, but as Loy states in the book we've just read 'Our ends, no matter how noble, do not justify any means

Gassho,

Heiso

What's wrong with moving?

Given that Kokuu is not and has never been a billionaire he lacks full perspective to opine on billionaires. On the other hand many billionaires have been dirt poor and have perspective to opine on a broader range of issues than me or you can.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Heiso]

Can’t argue with that one. [emoji1787]

[emoji1374] Sat Today

Well you can, you can argue it's not a terribly helpful comment, nor is it terribly kind but there you go.


So it seems this essay is discussing a transhumanist approach to tackling climate change. I'm not too well read on transhumanism but it seems there are two main areas for discussion. The ethical and the practical.

Judging from how I've seen this debate go elsewhere in the forum after the essay was cross-posted, I will steer clear of the ethical only to say I disagree.

As to the practical I also have my doubts. I share Kokuu's doubts about these white hat good guy billionaires. Let's not forget that in the last few years, while people died and lost their livelihoods to Covid, our richest men (yes, sadly all men) were sending themselves on pleasure flights to space.

I recognise that this essay was written in pain and frustration, but as Loy states in the book we've just read 'Our ends, no matter how noble, do not justify any means

Gassho,

Heiso

[Jundo]

I will not ask or request anyone to do so but I wish all of this discussion would have occurred outside of the EcoDharma section since it’s controversy has deflected thinking away from our efforts over the last 7 months of exploring the environmental challenges we face and how the dharma plays a role. I am sorry our efforts ended in this manner.


Doshin
St

Hi Doshin,

I am sorry if you feel that it is distracting, but I meant to offer some possible ways to address the very environmental disasters you are discussing, and I waited until you had finished the book so not to overly distract then. It is a Dharma take on solving those issues, although one that looks to 50 or 100 years in the future, not just 500 or 1000 years in the past.

I just posted this elsewhere today:

My apologies ...

I honestly believe that technology will have a major place in the future of Buddhism, right around the corner, and that science is the only realistic solution to a slew of social problems from violent crime to some environmental issues. Other issues that imperil the children, not to mention humanity as a whole, can only be solved when we change human nature to be less extremely violent, more caring, more generous, and that means changing our animal natures and biology within. I sincerely believe that if we have an effective means to do so (a big "if"), yet failed to do so, we are all complicit in the problem. My way of saying that is not graceful, and I apologize if my words are too strong.

I cannot help to talk about this in this Sangha, although it may offend some (hard to please everyone). I will try to be more graceful in how I do so, but the very mention of the topic will always disturb someone. No, I am not advocating fascism nor forcing anyone (except perhaps individuals who are convicted of crimes, just as we put them in prison now, and perhaps individuals who are clearly shown to have a propensity to rape, killing in anger and the like ... treating that as a medical condition, assuming we can clearly identify people who show a strong propensity to sexually abuse children, fly into violent rages, etc.) I believe it is fully in keeping with our Bodhisattva Vow to aid the sentient beings, preventing violence and bringing peace. I look just for a world of kinder, loving, more generous human beings who avoid to kill each other or to leave their brothers hungry and homeless in the streets.

If it offends some, and causes some to leave, well ... this is how religion and disagreements on social issues can be. I am sorry for the discomfort caused by these topics, but I do not chase anyone from here simply for disagreeing with my views, nor do I only invite those who agree. Buddhism cannot ignore coming technology, bio-engineering, robotics, developments in medical and brain science, and where this world is heading ... including whether there are good ways there to preserve this world and solve many of our problems.

I am sorry too, but I do find this discussion appropriate to the topic of gathering to sing about peace and harmony among humankind [and ending Global Warming].

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

PS - I am a lawyer, so I do speak with some perspective on our judicial and criminal justice systems from there. I am also a Buddhist teacher, so I can speak on these issues from there. I am not a scientist, but they need us "liberal arts" types to comment on the social and ethical issues of any coming technology they may (emphasis on "may") develop. I feel comfortable in doing so, and I will.