Ecodharma: An Alternative Last Chapter, written by Jundo

[Jundo]

Let's keep it friendly and civil, even if these are difficult topics. Thank you.

We don't usually discuss politics and social policy in the Sangha, but since the issue is Global Warming, there is a bit more leeway here to do so.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jishin]

May I humbly ask why are you chastising us this way for a topic which is really not that consequential which way who agrees on? These are opinions after all, and by their nature they evolve or get corrected as time passes and experience increases.

I am quite sad at how the tone of conversations in this forum has changed in the last two weeks.

Really sad. I will take a break now from conversations for some time and just sit. Life has bigger challenges than defending opinions.

Gassho.

sat.

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

The discussion of the unfair treatment of a class of citizens is extremely pertinent. I find it appalling that students of eastern philosophy are so willing to crucify this minority without understanding their situation better.

I am sorry you find this discussion difficult.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Tokan]

Yep - I'm not a referee around here, but I agree the tone of this thread is not our usual friendly way, let's remember we are here to support each others practice - lord knows we have enough challenges on our own without feeling uncomfortable here. May we all realise the enlightened way together!

Gassho, Tokan (satlah)

[Prashanth]

That's good. Then say what you mean: billionaires should exist, are good and are necessary.

If I understand you correctly, we should remind billionaires how to run their lifes and businesses? Say this sentence out loud and listen to yourself saying it so you can hear how crazy it sounds.

If you see the Buddha, please kill him. You are terribly attached to Buddha.

I am terribly deluded but I know so. Do you know this about yourself?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

May I humbly ask why are you chastising us this way for a topic which is really not that consequential which way who agrees on? These are opinions after all, and by their nature they evolve or get corrected as time passes and experience increases.

I am quite sad at how the tone of conversations in this forum has changed in the last two weeks.

Really sad. I will take a break now from conversations for some time and just sit. Life has bigger challenges than defending opinions.

Gassho.

sat.

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

[Jishin]

Nobody should abuse others, or themselves. That includes the poor if abusing in poor way, and the rich if they abuse in rich ways.

Gassho, J

STLah

I agree with this this wholeheartedly. The middle way. I just wish that students of eastern philosophy weren’t so quick to judge a person based upon their net worth.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Jundo]

Abuse is something humans are good at. Why single out the rich?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

Nobody should abuse others, or themselves. That includes the poor if abusing in poor way, and the rich if they abuse in rich ways.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

Yes, it is called the law ... laws to prevent labor, environmental, tax evasion and countless other abuses. Sadly, many of these laws are too weak right now, or do not work well across international borders.

And also, many of the values of excess consumption and luxury, materialism and selfishness represented by some of their lifestyles should not be as celebrated.

Gassho, J

STlah

Abuse is something humans are good at. Why single out the rich?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Jundo]

I think that this video may be interesting, although outside the Zen tradition. It describes, perhaps, the "baseline" on simplicity of austerity by the truly strict monk, and what they "need" for life, and do not need in order to be free of attachments.

Now, a caution: This was never the path for all people, and lay folks were not expected to live a life of such extremes. However, even so, lay folks were encouraged to lead a lifestyle as simple, bare bone, non-attached (not the same as being detached, by the way, especially in family life) and austere as possible. In fact, is this not a lesson too regarding consumerism and the environment, regarding how we could all live more simply, consuming less?

Are not these practices, as well, 2000 year old "technology" to change the human heart and mind?

Again, I am in -no way- encouraging most people to live like this. I would not choose such way, nor do I feel it is the best way to live or most healthful for most, or for society as a whole. (In fact, the practice extremes described in this video ... such as not reclining to sleep, or not accepting a second helping of food ... were/are considered too extreme, and rejected, even by most South Asian monks, and likely by the Buddha, so the video describes a minority, radical view. However, even "ordinary" monks are not to live extravagantly, even if they are allowed to accept a gift robe rather than one literally made of rags.)

Finally, I think one can disregard the very literal depictions of rebirth and various wonderous mental powers described in the video. However, the basic premise that being non-attached to desires, and living simply with few and moderate needs, remains at the heart of Buddhism and its view of liberation ... even in the Zen schools.

https://youtu.be/tXHDfllo2tA

Gassho, J

STLah

Sorry to run long

[Naiko]

Isn't much of Buddhism built on precisely that: the idea that enlightenment and salvation is bound to come in the future? And is not the Buddha the ultimate symbol of the man in the "white hat"?

Gassho, J

STLah

Well, I don’t know. I thought Buddhanature/enlightenment is here now and that Buddha said we are responsible for ourselves or we kill the Buddha when we meet him/her/they?
Gassho,
Naiko
st

[Jundo]

... we should remind billionaires how to run their lifes and businesses?

Yes, it is called the law ... laws to prevent labor, environmental, tax evasion and countless other abuses. Sadly, many of these laws are too weak right now, or do not work well across international borders.

And also, many of the values of excess consumption and luxury, materialism and selfishness represented by some of their lifestyles should not be as celebrated.

Gassho, J

STlah

[Jishin]

Ecodharma: An Alternative Last Chapter, written by Jundo

nobody said they shouldn't exist. Its just that when people aspire to be like them, they tend to forget or forgive many negatives too.
They should exist, and also should exist those who remind them that they can do bigger and better things to make the world a better place.

"Isms" don't make the world a better or worse place; people who stick to them do. So far, we are yet to come to an "ism" which is agreed by all and also does only good. Calling people "dense" just because they see something differently, isn't really selling anything. I'd rather be dense quite happily as long as I can sit quietly in that density and lightness of being.


gassho.

sat.

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

That's good. Then say what you mean: billionaires should exist, are good and are necessary.

If I understand you correctly, we should remind billionaires how to run their lifes and businesses? Say this sentence out loud and listen to yourself saying it so you can hear how crazy it sounds.

If you see the Buddha, please kill him. You are terribly attached to Buddha.

I am terribly deluded but I know so. Do you know this about yourself?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Jundo]

I think there is a danger in placing hope in future solutions.

Isn't much of Buddhism built on precisely that: the idea that enlightenment and salvation is bound to come in the future? And is not the Buddha the ultimate symbol of the man in the "white hat"?

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

Well, one can take the argument even further. Both Vimalakirti and Hatano were rich men in a different economic system, based mainly on the plantation, that is, slavery. So, what would Soto Zen be today if there were no slavery?

Gassho, Doğukan.
Sat.

That is absolutely true, even many monasteries owned slaves, and there are rules in the Vinaya and temple regulations for their good treatment. Folks in modern times needs to realize that the old days were just different, old ... no matter how we judge social values from our current perspective. Social values do change, and we should be happy that some things have changed:

http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-MISC/misc570463.pdf

and

http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/SILK/Silk_Ency%20Buddhism%20Slavery.pdf

Also, this is very interesting:

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/did-the-buddha-allow-slaves-to-be-used-by-the-sangha/19426

Of course, I fear that future folks will use this new technology to enslave the masses, and the "white hats" must work to prevent that! In a sense, it has already happened, as we are made passive slaves of consumerism, entranced by our phones and other entertainments, working in the factories to buy what the factories produce ... kept fat and docile.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Prashanth]

How would a world without billionaires or capitalism look like?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

nobody said they shouldn't exist. Its just that when people aspire to be like them, they tend to forget or forgive many negatives too.
They should exist, and also should exist those who remind them that they can do bigger and better things to make the world a better place.

"Isms" don't make the world a better or worse place; people who stick to them do. So far, we are yet to come to an "ism" which is agreed by all and also does only good. Calling people "dense" just because they see something differently, isn't really selling anything. I'd rather be dense quite happily as long as I can sit quietly in that density and lightness of being.


gassho.

sat.

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

[Naiko]

This is very interesting. Jundo, I can’t decide if your idea is impossibly optimistic (in your faith that humans could actually pull it off), or impossibly cynical (in that my teacher thinks humans are so flawed they must be drugged and/or genetically modified into good behavior!)..

I think there is a danger in placing hope in future solutions. I think this is humanity’s greatest strength-faith, hope, daring to imagine. It’s also our fatal flaw. We live for the future and always believe in tomorrow, like Scarlett O’Hara. What happens when we run out of tomorrows? We also mythologize the idea of a white hat wearing hero riding in to save the day. It’s more compelling to us than a story of many anonymous people all doing their part. It primes us to give up our power to a few. I agree with Kokuu’s skepticism of ‘white hat’ billionaires. They’re only out for themselves.

Sadly, I don’t think we have 50-100 years to work this out. We are 50-60 years behind in our response. We need to get to 45% of current emissions by 2040, but are projected to increase them by 14% or more. It’s a shame because solutions and technologies that could greatly ease our situation exist right now, and have existed for decades (or longer: electric vehicles existed over 100 years ago). What we do now, what we do next, matters.
Gassho,
Naiko
st