Zen Women: Chapter 4, pages 44-55

[Amelia]

Hello everyone,

This week we will be starting chapter four, Founders and Supporters, and we will read through to page 55. This section will cover female-identifying founders that cultivated Buddhist practice prior to Zen. Here, Schireson writes about female-identifying practitioners who had organized successful sanghas, how they remained open and supportive, and how they responded to the needs of their groups.

Let us remain gentle to each other as we discuss:

What are your thoughts on Mahapajapati, the Buddha's step mother, as she persisted in asking the Buddha to allow herself and other female-identifying people to practice alongside the monks and leave family life, despite her comfortable status? It must have been extremely difficult in such a segregated society.

Why do you think that even the Buddha was reluctant to allow female-identifying people to practice?

We then move on to the first Chinese female-identifying founders who found ways to be legitimized despite current rules that only monks could regulate their status.

Do you think that Zen practice has a long standing history of breaking its own rules to change for the better?

Please feel free to bring up any other questions or thoughts you discover as you read.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Onka]

Thank you Geika and the other female identifying Unsui for guiding us not only through this book but guiding ME through my Practice. Your Practice example I aspire to.
Gassho
Onka
Sat

[Naiko]

Mahapajapati must have been an exceptionally strong and determined person to persist in such an oppressive culture. As is the case today, her status and wealth (and relationship to the Buddha) likely gave her some protection and clout, amplifying her voice and allowing her to “get away” with being an iconoclast.

It’s difficult to know if the account of Buddha’s life we have is ‘true.’ Did the Enlightened One gather all seekers around him without discrimination? Or was he enlightened but still very much of his times and culture? Did he deny equality to female-identifying followers or was that written into the record later by more conservative voices? It’s difficult to imagine people of that time accepting women stepping out of the only roles they had ever filled. But Ananda could, apparently.

If the Buddha did object to ordaining female-identifying practitioners, it’s likely there was concern they would distract his monks away from practice. In many cultures and religions, even today, female bodies carry the burden and blame for men’s response to them. And so they were/are bound by all those extra rules.

Nine bows and many thanks to rule-breakers.
Gassho,
Krista
st

[Bokucho]

Even with her status and wealth, Mahapajapati still had to petition Ananda for support, who in turn was criticized for supporting her. I found it odd how gender even transcended classes with the male "untouchables" having more support than the women. I can't even begin to imagine the loss of knowledge and potential for those who didn't have a male to essentially give credibility to a woman. I do wonder if the Buddha's reluctance to allowing women to practice was due to the time period and the culture. Perhaps that much progress all at once would lose the support of people at the time and Buddhism would have never gotten off the ground? If I had a time machine I'd be interested to find out exactly why, but it really doesn't seem like the essence of Buddhist philosophy and Buddhist teaching would condone any form of discrimination, but that could also be the lens that we view it through today.

As the teachings have grown and infiltrated the various cultures around the world, I think the progress being made is wonderful. I'm glad that the philosophy we share is allowed to change with the times, but we also must remain educated and aware of the origins to be able to appreciate how far it's come, and what we can do to help it flourish further. It's like that saying "If you look back and you're not embarrassed of who you were, then you haven't really grown". Times change, cultures change, people change, and I'm glad that overall it's been for the better. I'm excited to see the future of Buddhism, and Zen in particular, and I'm proud to be a small part of it. I'm all for breaking rules in the interest of betterment, especially to be more inclusive and diverse. Diversity makes all of us a little stronger, and together we can shape a world that will do more good for more people.

I too bow to the rule-breakers.

Gassho,

Joshua
SatToday/LaH

[Amelia]

Lovely posts, guys!

Gassho,
Sat today, lah

[nknibbs]

Mahapajapati was exceptional and remains an exceptional role model for all Buddhists. To stand up for what she thought was right against Shakyamuni—she must have felt the dharma in her bones.

I agree with Schireson when she proposes the four ways to look at the Buddha in these scriptures. He was enlightened but he was still a man in his time. It was the Buddha himself that said we should regard the teaching more than the teacher if I recall correctly (though I’m paraphrasing).

I started this book yesterday and am thoroughly intrigued. Thank you for allowing me to enjoy this along with you all and deep bows to the female identifying Zen masters through the ages.

Gassho,
Nick
SatLah

[Shonin Risa Bear]

Reading along.

Am here, listening.

Many bows.

Gassho

shonin sat/lah today

[Jakuden]

Mahapajapati is a special figure to me. She symbolizes the confluence of both privilege and disadvantage that Western female-identifying folks like myself face. Her privilege of class and relationship allowed her to finally enter practice, but her gender produced obstacles that wouldn't otherwise have been an issue.

My privilege, as a white middle-class female raised in a middle-class New York suburb, allowed me to "break the barrier" of my gender and nationality. My guidance counselor in high school discouraged my ambitions, and to my father I was an outright black sheep for defying the expectation to get married and rely on a husband for my livelihood. But I had opportunities for work experience, loans, and high school advanced placement education that made it much easier for me to end up in an Ivy League school and beyond than it would have been for those who were racially or economically disadvantaged.

Yet, the disadvantages compared to white males in similar circumstances have also been my obstacles to overcome. My husband, who enthusiastically agreed to become a homemaker while I earned the paycheck, found that it was difficult and boring to fulfill that role and had no example among his friends or family to follow. So if I wanted to have a clean house and children not running wild, I pretty much had to make it happen by myself. I made very few friends because other women like myself were similarly stretched to the breaking point by working plus maintaining much of the responsibility for keeping a family running, and no one had time to maintain friendships!

So I too bow to these rule-breakers and feel a great solidarity with them. It was expressed in a previous chapter thread that the traumas caused by gender obstacles persist and are difficult to overcome, and although I certainly understand this, I prefer to look at how far we have come thanks to women like the early Zen practitioners described here. Is it unfair that women and gender preference/racial minorities have to work extra hard and perform extra-brilliantly to reap the same rewards? Perhaps, but perhaps it also will allow us to adapt better to a world which is becoming inevitably more diverse, where having a privileged, blind, fixed viewpoint will no longer be a viable strategy.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Kokuu]

Hello all

I really love the points raised here and respect given to Mahapajapati who, like many of you say, sounds like a very strong woman and her status, as well as her relationship with the Buddha, may well have allowed her an entry point unlikely to be granted to many others of her gender.

That this chapter looks at the perspective of Yasodhara I like a lot. I remember going on a retreat before I was really Buddhist and someone asking about the Buddha abandoning his family and the question was pretty much batted away. I thought that was not good enough and reducing Yasodhara to a bit part in Siddhartha's story of going-forth is a disservice to her and the other women in his life. These women were not just there to play second-fiddle to the awakening of a male Śramaṇa but people in their own right with dreams and desires.

Some of the stories about how Yasodhara and Rahula (the Buddha's son with her) later came to join the sangha often sound a lot to me like a manufactured happy ending to negate some of the fact that he abandoned them to go on his spiritual quest. Would people have looked so favourably on Yasodhara if she had done that?

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Onka]

My interest passions regularly manifest in the use of strong language and aggressive acts. I'm committed to learning how to communicate less aggressively which is no doubt a product of being raised in a tough working class area and growing up literally fighting for everything. Just over 12 months of Buddhism practice is not long enough to undo 48 years of conditioning. I will follow this important thread closely but will limit my input because I want ALL voices to be heard.
Thank you Jakuden for your post above, personal stories highlight how far we've come but also how far we have to go.
Gassho
Onka
Sat today

[nknibbs]

Hello all

I really love the points raised here and respect given to Mahapajapati who, like many of you say, sounds like a very strong woman and her status, as well as her relationship with the Buddha, may well have allowed her an entry point unlikely to be granted to many others of her gender.

That this chapter looks at the perspective of Yasodhara I like a lot. I remember going on a retreat before I was really Buddhist and someone asking about the Buddha abandoning his family and the question was pretty much batted away. I thought that was not good enough and reducing Yasodhara to a bit part in Siddhartha's story of going-forth is a disservice to her and the other women in his life. These women were not just there to play second-fiddle to the awakening of a male Śramaṇa but people in their own right with dreams and desires.

Some of the stories about how Yasodhara and Rahula (the Buddha's son with her) later came to join the sangha often sound a lot to me like a manufactured happy ending to negate some of the fact that he abandoned them to go on his spiritual quest. Would people have looked so favourably on Yasodhara if she had done that?

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Excellent points!

I recall when I first learned about the Buddha I had a tough time with him leaving his family.

Gassho,
Nick
SatLah

[Naiko]

Oh, Jakuden and Kokuu-your posts are just beautiful. Thank you! And Onka, I very much value your posts and how deeply your sense of justice is felt. I learn so much from all the voices here.
Gassho,
Krista
st/lah

[Amelia]

While road tripping the past weekend, I happened to pass a temple in Mahapajapati's name. It brightened my day to see that she did not pass into obscurity even out here in California.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Jundo]

While road tripping the past weekend, I happened to pass a temple in Mahapajapati's name. It brightened my day to see that she did not pass into obscurity even out here in California.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

Pardon my dropping in. It is this place ...

Mahapajapati Monastery is a meditation monastery for women dedicated to living the Buddha's teachings. We are a monastic and contemplative community in the Theravada Buddhist tradition, and as such, we value both solitude and social harmony. We invite you to share in our simple, quiet life of practice and study.

The monastery is in Pioneertown, California, on eighty acres of high desert in the southern part of the state. Founded in 2007 by Therese Duchesne, Mahapajapati Monastery has been under the guidance of Ayya Gunasari as abbess and spiritual director since that time.

The monastery's primary purpose is to give women the opportunity to ordain as bhikkhunis—fully ordained Buddhist nuns—and to practice in accordance with the Dhamma and the rules of monastic discipline taught by the Buddha over 2,500 years ago. We believe that by living and practicing in this way, we can be of the greatest benefit to ourselves and to society as a whole by improving our own hearts and minds and helping others to do the same. Currently there is one bhikkhuni and a silashin in residence.
http://www.mahapajapati.com/the-monastery.html

... considered actually rather "radical" as women are still denied full Ordination in much of the Theravada tradition:

[The founder of the temple] Ayya Gunasari was born in Burma (now Myanmar) in 1932. She went to medical school there and then immigrated to the United States with her husband in 1961 to pursue a post-graduate degree. She became an anaesthesiologist and raised five children. Ayya Gunasari began meditating in the late 1970s with Mahasi Sayadaw, Taung Pulu Sayadaw, Sayadaw U Silananda, and Sayadaw U Pandita. She was a serious meditator and would invite these teachers to come and teach at her home, where she would run retreats free of charge. ... She began to do research and discovered that there were a few bhikkhunis who had been recently ordained in the Theravada tradition. She spoke to her teacher Sayadaw U Silananda about what she had discovered, and he said that the lineage of bhikkhunis had been lost in ancient times and that Burmese monks believed that it could not be reestablished. As Ayya Gunasari continued to do research, she continued to show her findings to Sayadaw U Silananda. He told her that he was aware of Buddhist monks in the earlier part of the 1900s who had helped bhikkhunis and who were criticized—and one was forced to disrobe—because of the disapproval of their fellow monks. He told her that he could not help her or he would suffer the same fate that those monks had. However, he did not say that she shouldn't ordain. Instead, he asked, “What would you do if you didn't have someone to give you these precepts?” Ayya Gunasari, ever determined, told him that she would go in front of a Buddha image and take them herself. Sayadaw U Silananda picked up the phone and called Venerable Walpola Piyananda, the Chief Sangha Nayaka Thero of the Sri Lankan Sangha in North America and asked him to help Ayya Gunasari to ordain.


In 2002, then aged 70 and a grandmother, Ayya Gunasari entered into monastic life as a samaneri (novice), ordained by Venerable Piyananda and Venerable Pannaloka Mahathera at Dharma Vijaya Buddhist Vihara in Los Angeles. It was Sayadaw U Silananda who gave her the name “Gunasari,” which means one who has the essence of virtue.

After her samaneri ordination, Ayya Gunasari went to her homeland of Burma in order to do an intensive retreat under the guidance of her teacher Sayadaw U Pandita. When he saw her in her samaneri robes, he asked her to change into the robes of a ten-precept thilashin, because he said that the monks would be shocked that she had ordained as a samaneri. Ayya Gunasari was heartbroken, but acceded to her teacher's request. After finishing the retreat, she left Burma for Sri Lanka with a renewed sense of the plight of Buddhist women and the issue of inequality. She never returned to Burma again.

In 2003, Ayya Gunasari was ordained as a bhikkhuni in Sri Lanka. Following her full ordination, she returned to the United States to live. She stayed in various dhamma centers and in a supporter's garage. It took years for her teacher, Sayadaw U Pandita, to recognize her as a bhikkhuni, but eventually he did.
http://www.mahapajapati.com/sangha.html

Gassho, J

STLah

[Amelia]

I believe that is the place! I was in the high desert. What a nice coincidence, I wouldn't have seen it if I hadn't been staring at Google Maps!

Gassho
Sat today, lah