Zen Women : Chapter 3, pages 35 - 43

[Onka]

I am reading this book with you all. When I finished reading and thinking about the part, there are usually already posts in the thread and I've had nothing substantial to add. I am a bit on the quiet, shy side, too.
Often, out here in the world, I see male identifying folk dominating discussions, taking much larger time-slices, than appropriate.
So, I kept silent. Reading. Thinking. It makes me a bit sad, that you're viewing my behaviour as dismissive and disappointing.

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

Apologies Kotei
I'll be completely honest and say that I read your comment as an attack on me. Clearly this wasn't the case just as my generalisation wasn't directed at you.
Hopefully the following comes across as a self reflection rather than a defensive statement but this topic which is as much about language as it is inclusiveness is very personal to me. It is literally a matter of life and death for those of us who don't fit the gender binary and I don't make that statement lightly. Our right to exist is under threat everytime we leave the house. This is why I think my word choices can come across as aggressive. I've attempted to use language that is inclusive in an attempt to highlight areas where we all, including myself can do and be better. I'm sorry if anything I say is being perceived as alienating because to know me is to know that I go above and beyond to protect and advocate for others, sometimes at physical risk to myself.
I know I can do better with my language choice especially when speaking passionately and will try harder.
Gassho
Onka
St

[Onkai]

I was also surprised that in Japan there were ordained women before there were ordained men. I think it is important for men identified and women identified to practice together precisely because these issues are in our lives, and if they aren't faced in practice, they are less likely to be faced at all. If the "Eight Special Rules" for women were in effect in our sangha, then it would be important to be separated, though. Those are just my thoughts, though.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

[Heiso]

I've also been following along with the reading. I've had a very busy couple of weeks though so haven't had much time to post my thoughts, just as I haven't been posting elsewhere on the forum either.

Gassho

Heiso
StLah

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

[Byokan]

I have been following the thread to learn. I am not reading the book because I have a pile of books to read and previously only participated once or twice in all these years. But I am reading your posts to learn. I am listening.

Do I get Karma points for attending a three week (via Zoom) Spring Practice at Upaya where the focus was women in Zen? I think all those talks were recorded if anyone wants to hear them.

Doshin
St

Doshin
St

Listening is good!

Thanks for the tip about the Upaya talks, Doshin. I took a look; they are free (but a donation is always welcomed) on the Upaya website.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

[Byokan]

Discussion is like digging a hole in the ocean.

Have been applying the Four Practices to interaction with others, with moderate success. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_S...Four_Practices

I appreciate everyone here. _()_

gassho
shonin sat today and also lah

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

[Byokan]

I was also surprised that in Japan there were ordained women before there were ordained men. I think it is important for men identified and women identified to practice together precisely because these issues are in our lives, and if they aren't faced in practice, they are less likely to be faced at all. If the "Eight Special Rules" for women were in effect in our sangha, then it would be important to be separated, though. Those are just my thoughts, though.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

Hi Onkai,

yes, very good point. Practicing "out in the world" together brings these issues forward in a way that can't be ignored, an opportunity for everyone to benefit. Then too I agree with Onka that practicing separately sometimes can be wonderfully freeing and nourishing. Each in its own time, I suppose.

Ugh, the "Eight Special Rules". Happy that we've left those behind!

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

[Cooperix]

I am 74 years old. I am reading along with the rest of you, but the discussion and the book only remind me of the long history of patriarchal dominance and how, even though some progress has been made we have so, so far to go. In my long life the deep grinding pain I have felt as a dismissed/abused/disrespected woman has not left me. It brings tears to my eyes writing this.

And reading the book only reminds me of how bad it has been and for how long. And it makes me wonder if it will ever end. So I sit on the sidelines and listen quietly in sadness.
I can't say I have much hope either.

BOWS

Anne

~lahst~

[Onka]

I am 74 years old. I am reading along with the rest of you, but the discussion and the book only remind me of the long history of patriarchal dominance and how, even though some progress has been made we have so, so far to go. In my long life the deep grinding pain I have felt as a dismissed/abused/disrespected woman has not left me. It brings tears to my eyes writing this.

And reading the book only reminds me of how bad it has been and for how long. And it makes me wonder if it will ever end. So I sit on the sidelines and listen quietly in sadness.
I can't say I have much hope either.

BOWS

Anne

~lahst~

Gassho
Onka
st

[Nengei]

I am seeing this thread for the first time today, and will obtain the text and catch up to participate. Raised in family of strong women, including a past president of NOW, I have a keen awareness of inequity that is rampant in our male-dominated culture. As a man, I struggle to free myself by recognizing my own perpetuation of these things.

Gassho,
然芸 Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[Doshin]

Anne



Doshin
St

[Meian]

There are a select few 'male identifying' that I have not had difficulty with, even with extended contact.

However, for me this is an issue of awareness, and it is difficult to explain a reality of living awareness to someone whose reality is nothing like our own. What usually happens is that I get "mansplained" (yes, I said it) about our own existence and how surely it must be our fault that certain things are happening -- whether our perception, someone's reaction, or we're just not doing "enough of", "the wrong thing", or we're being silly, moody, mean, etc., etc., ...... most female-identifying have heard it all before -- how our existence and experiences are explained away -- or dismissed/ignored entirely.

And yet ..... there are some male-identifying who, somehow, get it. They know, understand, or somehow perceive what is going on.

For that, we are deeply grateful, and cherish our brothers, mentors, friends. They help make our experiences and realities 'accessible' -- understandable -- in a way that we can't. So, I feel some hope that change is possible, for those who are open and willing to listen and expand their awareness.

gassho, meian st lh

[Cooperix]

Just to be clear. There are many very fine, enlightened men. I know a number of them. I am married to one.
But the overall challenge of dramatic change seems daunting. Too many brutes.

bows
Anne
~lahst~

[Byokan]

I am 74 years old. I am reading along with the rest of you, but the discussion and the book only remind me of the long history of patriarchal dominance and how, even though some progress has been made we have so, so far to go. In my long life the deep grinding pain I have felt as a dismissed/abused/disrespected woman has not left me. It brings tears to my eyes writing this.

And reading the book only reminds me of how bad it has been and for how long. And it makes me wonder if it will ever end. So I sit on the sidelines and listen quietly in sadness.
I can't say I have much hope either.

BOWS
Anne
~lahst~

Just to be clear. There are many very fine, enlightened men. I know a number of them. I am married to one.
But the overall challenge of dramatic change seems daunting. Too many brutes.

Hi Anne,

Deep bows to you for sharing this.

Deep bows and metta for your suffering, and for the suffering of all who are oppressed. And yes, metta for the oppressors too.

When you speak of the life-long deep grinding pain, my heart stirs, because you speak for so many. This too has been my experience. And this is so important, because putting it into words is the first step toward change. We must look clearly, bear witness, speak truthfully, listen deeply, and acknowledge.

Even in the midst of pain, anger, frustration, cynicism, and sadness, I do have hope. I know that change is possible and it is our shared experience, our true nature of interbeing, that makes it possible. I believe wholeheartedly that the inevitable consequence of fully opening one's eyes and heart to the truth is... compassion. And this will make dramatic change not only possible, but necessary, unavoidable. It's going to take a while. But I really believe this journey has begun.

I'm finding much inspiration in this book and in our shared experience with it.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

[Byokan]

There are a select few 'male identifying' that I have not had difficulty with, even with extended contact.

However, for me this is an issue of awareness, and it is difficult to explain a reality of living awareness to someone whose reality is nothing like our own. What usually happens is that I get "mansplained" (yes, I said it) about our own existence and how surely it must be our fault that certain things are happening -- whether our perception, someone's reaction, or we're just not doing "enough of", "the wrong thing", or we're being silly, moody, mean, etc., etc., ...... most female-identifying have heard it all before -- how our existence and experiences are explained away -- or dismissed/ignored entirely.

And yet ..... there are some male-identifying who, somehow, get it. They know, understand, or somehow perceive what is going on.

For that, we are deeply grateful, and cherish our brothers, mentors, friends. They help make our experiences and realities 'accessible' -- understandable -- in a way that we can't. So, I feel some hope that change is possible, for those who are open and willing to listen and expand their awareness.

gassho, meian st lh

Hi Meian,

Yes! Openness, awareness is key.

And (*ding!* goes the bell)... this is exactly what we practice and cultivate every time we sit shikantaza.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

[Cooperix]

Hi Anne,

Deep bows to you for sharing this.

Deep bows and metta for your suffering, and for the suffering of all who are oppressed. And yes, metta for the oppressors too.

When you speak of the life-long deep grinding pain, my heart stirs, because you speak for so many. This too has been my experience. And this is so important, because putting it into words is the first step toward change. We must look clearly, bear witness, speak truthfully, listen deeply, and acknowledge.

Even in the midst of pain, anger, frustration, cynicism, and sadness, I do have hope. I know that change is possible and it is our shared experience, our true nature of interbeing, that makes it possible. I believe wholeheartedly that the inevitable consequence of fully opening one's eyes and heart to the truth is... compassion. And this will make dramatic change not only possible, but necessary, unavoidable. It's going to take a while. But I really believe this journey has begun.

I'm finding much inspiration in this book and in our shared experience with it.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

Byokan,

I am glad there are optimists in the world. Because an optimist will not give up. And that's exactly what is needed to elicit change. Maybe it's genetic, or the result of being raised by a fearful, pessimistic mother but I have a sad and dark lookout.
Or maybe it's just the experiences in my life.
Thank you for your comments and your optimism!

Gassho
Anne
~st~