Zen Women : Chapter 3, pages 35 - 43

[Byokan]

Hello All,

Moving forward into Chapter 3, Schireson discusses the cultural expectations and practical obstacles that especially affected women who wanted to study and practice Zen. These challenges brought forth creative adaptations to make their training and practice possible. “Women’s practice” evolved beyond the monastic, to include active participation while engaged in relationships, family care, and community, also addressing financial and mobility restraints. Sounds familiar, right? This is our practice here at Treeleaf. Our practice in the West is very much inspired by these women practitioners.

Were you surprised to find out that women were the first to be ordained in Japan? I was! I just assumed that men had led the way. Has this book, or your practice, revealed to you any assumptions that you may have held about women in zen?

Zen practice in the west is not as segregated as it is in other places. Do you think separate training for men and women would be beneficial, or not? How might it differ? What are the benefits and drawbacks of all genders practicing together?

As a society, our understanding of gender is evolving. How do you imagine modern concepts of gender will manifest in Zen sanghas in the future?

In the west we have many female-identifying people stepping into both ordained and lay teaching roles. Do you think this might change the way that Zen is taught and practiced?

Any other thoughts about this chapter? Please share!

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

[Onka]

"Were you surprised to find out that women were the first to be ordained in Japan? I was! I just assumed that men had led the way. Has this book, or your practice, revealed to you any assumptions that you may have held about women in zen?"

TBH I wasn't surprised that female identifying folk were the first to ne ordained in Japan. Make no mistake I'm no Japanese or any other history scholar but I'd assumed that Shinto would've been the religion of choice for those wielding power and those who maintained it. I'd assumed that Zen, like Taoism were more folksy and practiced outside of the centres of power.
As for revealing assumptions about female identifying folk in Zen, the book has shone a spotlight on areas within Zen that were blind spots and are still blind spots. I think we female identifying folk along with our allies need to make sure we don't take our boot off of the neck of patriarchal systems of power and how they subtly and too often passive aggressively "guide" our practice in the direction of maintaining systems of oppression.

"Zen practice in the west is not as segregated as it is in other places. Do you think separate training for men and women would be beneficial, or not? How might it differ? What are the benefits and drawbacks of all genders practicing together?"

Firstly, I have found that "Zen in the West" equals Zen in the US. Yes this is obviously population bias and geography at play but I wonder what Western Zen would look like if it was predominately Australian, French, Spanish or Brazilian? Everything introduced to a country takes on a flavour of that country as happened when Bodhidharma arrived with Buddhism in China and when it arrived from China via Korea to Japan.
As an outsider I view Western Zen in the US as pretty conservative in respects of trying to mimic their interpretation of Japanese Zen. It feels in some ways like historical reenactment. In saying that there is a progressive element within Western Zen that keeps me engaged.
I do think that female identifying folk would benefit from elements of segregation. Personally I've found passive aggressive behaviour and sexism to be too much to ignore, not to mention "mansplaining". These are often blind spots from the male identifying folk but they're enough to turn female identifying folk away not only from Zen but from seeking ordination. It would be wonderful to Practice at least some of the time with only female identifying people as I feel that we'd open up more and share our thoughts on the Dharma without worrying about being mansplained or dismissed. I don't think separation of genders would be good all of the time because male identifying folk already practice from a position of power, both within Zen and in broader society. It doesn't take much for "boys club" mentality to take hold within any spaces be they Zen or elsewhere. We need strong female identifying folk to counter this culture.
That there is very little input from male identifying folk within this Sangha to this book club selection suggests to me a dismissive attitude which is both not surprising but also disappointing.

"As a society, our understanding of gender is evolving. How do you imagine modern concepts of gender will manifest in Zen sanghas in the future?"

Language. Language has power so that's where most change and resistance will come from.

"In the west we have many female-identifying people stepping into both ordained and lay teaching roles. Do you think this might change the way that Zen is taught and practiced?"

Absolutely! In saying that there's an undercurrent of understanding that the boat should not be rocked. I am personally of the opinion that tipping the boat over can have a positive impact while still retaining respect to history and teachings. After all, wasn't the historical Buddha a rebel for his time just as Jesus was to his?

Gassho
Onka
Sat

[Kotei]

That there is very little input from male identifying folk within this Sangha to this book club selection suggests to me a dismissive attitude which is both not surprising but also disappointing.

I am reading this book with you all. When I finished reading and thinking about the part, there are usually already posts in the thread and I've had nothing substantial to add. I am a bit on the quiet, shy side, too.
Often, out here in the world, I see male identifying folk dominating discussions, taking much larger time-slices, than appropriate.
So, I kept silent. Reading. Thinking. It makes me a bit sad, that you're viewing my behaviour as dismissive and disappointing.

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Byokan]

... I think we female identifying folk along with our allies need to make sure we don't take our boot off of the neck of patriarchal systems of power and how they subtly and too often passive aggressively "guide" our practice in the direction of maintaining systems of oppression...

Hi Onka

Well, I certainly don't intend to put my boot on anyone's neck! But I take your point, and it's an interesting one. I do think we all need to consider our roles in maintaining or enabling injustice and inequality, considering both our privileges and our responsibilities to stand up, speak out, and act for the benefit of all. It's starting to happen; at least I see glimmers of hope! As Buddhists we have the Precepts to guide us in taking responsibility for ourselves and for the world. The Bodhisattva Way is not just woo woo zenny grooviness. When practiced sincerely it is utterly transformative, and I believe that applies to society as well as individuals.

How do you imagine modern concepts of gender will manifest in Zen sanghas in the future?"
Language. Language has power so that's where most change and resistance will come from.

Yes, I agree, it really is the beginning of understanding, which leads to change.

That there is very little input from male identifying folk within this Sangha to this book club selection suggests to me a dismissive attitude which is both not surprising but also disappointing.

Actually, looking back at prior threads, it seems to be about evenly split. Oh but wait! How do we know who is male-identifying? Are we assuming, based on their appearance or style of writing? Hmm. At any rate, I propose the possibility that anyone who's hanging back is not necessarily dismissive, but probably erring on the side of silence from an attitude of respect, or just wanting to listen for a while rather than speaking. I welcome all lurkers, while hoping that people will feel safe here to speak and be heard.

Thanks for your passion and insight!

Gassho
Byōkan

[Byokan]

I am reading this book with you all. When I finished reading and thinking about the part, there are usually already posts in the thread and I've had nothing substantial to add. I am a bit on the quiet, shy side, too.
Often, out here in the world, I see male identifying folk dominating discussions, taking much larger time-slices, than appropriate.
So, I kept silent. Reading. Thinking. It makes me a bit sad, that you're viewing my behaviour as dismissive and disappointing.

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

Thanks for reading and thinking, Kotei! I appreciate your wholehearted engagement, whether loud or quiet.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

[Meitou]

I am reading this book with you all. When I finished reading and thinking about the part, there are usually already posts in the thread and I've had nothing substantial to add. I am a bit on the quiet, shy side, too.
Often, out here in the world, I see male identifying folk dominating discussions, taking much larger time-slices, than appropriate.
So, I kept silent. Reading. Thinking. It makes me a bit sad, that you're viewing my behaviour as dismissive and disappointing.

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

Kotei, I can relate to what you're saying and I sympathise. I'm not contributing to the discussion either because even I feel slightly intimidated by the tone of posts and the direction the discussions are starting to take, so I can imagine some of our Dharma brothers may feel the same. Assumptions and generalisations are not a good foundation for discussion at any time, and especially not in a Zendo where there are opportunities to practice even in the way we speak.
Please let's be gentle with each other.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Byokan]

Kotei, I can relate to what you're saying and I sympathise. I'm not contributing to the discussion either because even I feel slightly intimidated by the tone of posts and the direction the discussions are starting to take, so I can imagine some of our Dharma brothers may feel the same. Assumptions and generalisations are not a good foundation for discussion at any time, and especially not in a Zendo where there are opportunities to practice even in the way we speak.
Please let's be gentle with each other.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

Thank you for this, Meitou.

You are right.

There is so much that is interesting in this book, and it doesn't all come down to just "boys against girls". Sure, it can be a touchy subject. But let's all agree to protect and take care of each other. I hope you, and everyone, will feel free to take the discussion in any direction that interests you. Whatever catches your eye or your heart as you're reading, whatever inspires you or sparks some insight, please share! Everyone's perspective is valuable and welcome.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

[Kokuu]

That there is very little input from male identifying folk within this Sangha to this book club selection suggests to me a dismissive attitude which is both not surprising but also disappointing.

Hi Onka

I have not read this section yet but commented on the first part of the discussion.

As Kotei says, men are often seen to be dominating discussions, especially about matters that are not centrally about them such as women's health and feminism, so I would not be surprised if letting women and minority genders largely have the floor here was something other members are respectful of. I know I am definitely staying quieter than I might otherwise be for this reason.

Assuming the motivation behind any behaviour is risky and, as Byōkan says, while this text doubtless addresses issues of gender oppression (and hopefully within that the intersection with relation to ethnicity, sexuality, gender identity, disability etc) it would would seem good not to assume dismissiveness on behalf of parts of the sangha.

We clearly want to use this discussion to understand and push for greater inclusivity in all ways (as this sangha can hopefully be seen to do in relation to disability) which is doubtless a major part of the book's reason for existing, but there is also a balance to be sought in not solidifying identities and making assumptions based on them.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah

[Byokan]

... it would seem good not to assume dismissiveness on behalf of parts of the sangha.

We clearly want to use this discussion to understand and push for greater inclusivity in all ways (as this sangha can hopefully be seen to do in relation to disability) which is doubtless a major part of the book's reason for existing, but there is also a balance to be sought in not solidifying identities and making assumptions based on them.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah

Well said, Bro.

It's really good to acknowledge the inherent tensions around these matters and discuss them openly, instead of tippy-toeing around it. We can learn a lot from examining our comfort level with posting or not posting. Let's not judge the reactions of others, but realize that our reaction to their perceived reaction is something to practice with! It's all part of the issue. There's a fine balance to be navigated if we truly want to learn from each other. It's ok to make mistakes, to say too much or too little, to stumble over our own beliefs and attachments. It's a risk we take willingly in order to share and grow. Everyone has something unique to offer.

If we are to make any assumptions, let's assume that we don't know anyone's motivation, and kindly default to the assumption that our Sangha comrades have good motivations. Let's remember and honor Shoka's first post from the beginning:

Since the topics of discrimination and inclusion are very hot button items right now, we want to remind everyone that this is a book club. Please keep the conversation focused on the book and examples that are relevant to this topic. Also please remember to use right speech, and attempt to assume that what people say is meant with good intentions. Let’s all come to the table with an open mind, ready to share and learn from one another.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

[Doshin]

I have been following the thread to learn. I am not reading the book because I have a pile of books to read and previously only participated once or twice in all these years. But I am reading your posts to learn. I am listening.

Do I get Karma points for attending a three week (via Zoom) Spring Practice at Upaya where the focus was women in Zen? I think all those talks were recorded if anyone wants to hear them.

Doshin
St

Doshin
St

[Shonin Risa Bear]

Discussion is like digging a hole in the ocean.

Have been applying the Four Practices to interaction with others, with moderate success. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_S...Four_Practices

I appreciate everyone here. _()_

gassho
shonin sat today and also lah

[Onka]

Me do better next time. Me not like upset others. Me like book.
Gassho Onka
Sat before chat

[Onka]

I have been following the thread to learn. I am not reading the book because I have a pile of books to read and previously only participated once or twice in all these years. But I am reading your posts to learn. I am listening.

Do I get Karma points for attending a three week (via Zoom) Spring Practice at Upaya where the focus was women in Zen? I think all those talks were recorded if anyone wants to hear them.

Doshin
St

Doshin
St

Gassho
Onka
st

[Onka]

Discussion is like digging a hole in the ocean.

Have been applying the Four Practices to interaction with others, with moderate success. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_S...Four_Practices

I appreciate everyone here. _()_

gassho
shonin sat today and also lah

Thank you Shonin
You continue to teach me without trying.
Gassho
Onka
ST

[Seikan]

Discussion is like digging a hole in the ocean.

Have been applying the Four Practices to interaction with others, with moderate success. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_S...Four_Practices

I appreciate everyone here. _()_

gassho
shonin sat today and also lah

Shonin is always such a force to be reckoned with. I'm so grateful to her for her calm, abiding presence in this Sangha.

I have been a bit quiet in this discussion as of late only because I'm falling behind in the reading. I plan to make up for that this weekend. I'm looking forward to continuing here as I'm learning so much already.

Gassho,
Rob

-st-



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk