Zen Women: Chapter 2, Pages 11 - 20

[Onka]

You're right about relationships and communication Jakuden. I went to a Zendo for a couple of months before my own disabilities prevented me and found it really strange that folk arrived, sat, and then left with few words, greetings or farewells. I gathered that they must form connections on their yearly retreats which I could neither afford to go to financially or because of my caregiver responsibilities of my partner. And yes, without Treeleaf I wouldn't have a Zendo, perhaps not even a Zen practice, but I definitely wouldn't have a Sangha as warm and diverse as I do.
Gassho
Onka
ST

[Meian]

For many women, communication and relationships are "hardwired" to be the priority in the brain. .... Another obstacle is the need of women to be caretakers, especially of family. This is applying more to men nowadays, but still is far from being equal. If it were not for Treeleaf, I would not be able to be part of a Sangha because it would require too much time away from family. ..... Women are also usually the primary caretakers of older family members if they are present in a household.

Gassho2, meian st lh



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[Onka]

Howdy folks
For some time, perhaps since I joined Treeleaf I've referred to folk as Sisters, Brothers, and Others so as to be as inclusive as possible.
I'm not sure why but I'm finding the reference to "female" and "women" a little alienating. Perhaps it's just me and the negative life experiences I've had or perhaps others as well but I like to make it understood that transwomen ARE women. Also, many transphobic twits use female as a biological weapon to alienate and negate transwomen. For this reason I personally prefer all women to be regarded as "female identifying". After all, some assigned at birth females are transmen and identify as they are... men.
I don't want to derail this reading and I don't think I am but if we are talking about women in Zen we MUST talk about language and the understanding that transwomen in Zen are indeed women in Zen.
Gassho
Onka
ST/flew the Anarcho-Queer flag high

We must acknowledge women with different abilities too. Anything that is written as Women in Zen generally/mostly assumes able bodied and female assigned at birth as the definition of women.

[Jakuden]

Howdy folks
For some time, perhaps since I joined Treeleaf I've referred to folk as Sisters, Brothers, and Others so as to be as inclusive as possible.
I'm not sure why but I'm finding the reference to "female" and "women" a little alienating. Perhaps it's just me and the negative life experiences I've had or perhaps others as well but I like to make it understood that transwomen ARE women. Also, many transphobic twits use female as a biological weapon to alienate and negate transwomen. For this reason I personally prefer all women to be regarded as "female identifying". After all, some assigned at birth females are transmen and identify as they are... men.
I don't want to derail this reading and I don't think I am but if we are talking about women in Zen we MUST talk about language and the understanding that transwomen in Zen are indeed women in Zen.
Gassho
Onka
ST/flew the Anarcho-Queer flag high

We must acknowledge women with different abilities too. Anything that is written as Women in Zen generally/mostly assumes able bodied and female assigned at birth as the definition of women.

Yes, almost all the Buddhist literature we encounter will assume able-bodied and traditional concepts of gender. But it did not seem quite right to use “women” even though that is ostensibly the subject, now I know why, thank you [emoji4] “female-identifying” it will be henceforth.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Onka]

Yes, almost all the Buddhist literature we encounter will assume able-bodied and traditional concepts of gender. But it did not seem quite right to use “women” even though that is ostensibly the subject, now I know why, thank you [emoji4] “female-identifying” it will be henceforth.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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I humbly suggest that my comments be regarded as seeds planted rather than demands placed.
Gassho
Onka
ST

[Meian]

Interesting topic. People who don't know my gender online often assume i am male because of how I write. Never really sure why this is, but it has happened frequently for as long as I have participated in discussions.

The irony is that i still don't view myself as a gender -- personally I have never understood how a gender is supposed to feel like. I am just me. I never did understand the distinction, although I know that my brain functions differently from most male brains, but I get along much better with men than with women. I do not fit (and never have) assumed gender behavior norms and this still causes me loads of trouble in my age group and older. The younger generations don't subscribe so much to identity politics, maybe.

Sisters, brothers and others ..... I still consider myself an "other" -- I don't think about gender or specific sexuality. If our society didn't have to define us and box us, then i could simply exist and be drawn to qualities without assigning a gender and a physique. But our society is not set up that way, we still have to tick the boxes and choose a role. I dislike the gender question on forms, etc, because it doesn't fit me, and it's required. I give the expected answer because systems aren't designed for nonbinary challenges. Then they still ask me questions that don't apply and I give confusing answers.

Gassho, meian st lh

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[Onka]

Interesting topic. People who don't know my gender online often assume i am male because of how I write. Never really sure why this is, but it has happened frequently for as long as I have participated in discussions.

The irony is that i still don't view myself as a gender -- personally I have never understood how a gender is supposed to feel like. I am just me. I never did understand the distinction, although I know that my brain functions differently from most male brains, but I get along much better with men than with women. I do not fit (and never have) assumed gender behavior norms and this still causes me loads of trouble in my age group and older. The younger generations don't subscribe so much to identity politics, maybe.

Sisters, brothers and others ..... I still consider myself an "other" -- I don't think about gender or specific sexuality. If our society didn't have to define us and box us, then i could simply exist and be drawn to qualities without assigning a gender and a physique. But our society is not set up that way, we still have to tick the boxes and choose a role. I dislike the gender question on forms, etc, because it doesn't fit me, and it's required. I give the expected answer because systems aren't designed for nonbinary challenges. Then they still ask me questions that don't apply and I give confusing answers.

Gassho, meian st lh

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Gassho
Onka
SG

[Bokucho]

I'll agree with "perseverance" as a term that makes more sense. When I first started reading about these "macho tough-guys" I was picturing Hulk Hogan or 80's era Arnold in a rakusu. "Tough" as in "unwavering tenacity" fits a little better with my mental image of historical Zen masters. That being said, it would take someone of tremendous character to become a Zen master, whichever gender. Of course in that time period gender roles were far more traditional, so while all genders required work, I think those female-identifying students had a much harder time of it. Early in the chapter it refers to a study of how female-identifying people are perceived in corporate America, and how if they're anything other than stereotypical "mother, pet, or seductress" they're seen as a monster. While it's perfectly normal for male-identifying people to have an entire spectrum of personalities, female-identifying persons are required to have just a few. I look forward to more reading, but I may lurk comments more than participate. I feel somewhat ignorant about this topic, but that's why I'm trying to learn. The last thing I want to do is offend anybody, and I thank you all for the discussion.

Gassho,

Joshua
SatToday

[Naiko]

Howdy folks
For some time, perhaps since I joined Treeleaf I've referred to folk as Sisters, Brothers, and Others so as to be as inclusive as possible.
I'm not sure why but I'm finding the reference to "female" and "women" a little alienating. Perhaps it's just me and the negative life experiences I've had or perhaps others as well but I like to make it understood that transwomen ARE women. Also, many transphobic twits use female as a biological weapon to alienate and negate transwomen. For this reason I personally prefer all women to be regarded as "female identifying". After all, some assigned at birth females are transmen and identify as they are... men.
I don't want to derail this reading and I don't think I am but if we are talking about women in Zen we MUST talk about language and the understanding that transwomen in Zen are indeed women in Zen.
Gassho
Onka
ST/flew the Anarcho-Queer flag high

We must acknowledge women with different abilities too. Anything that is written as Women in Zen generally/mostly assumes able bodied and female assigned at birth as the definition of women.

I appreciate this discussion about language, especially inclusive language. In my mind, I include trans women as women when I say women, but I guess I type women out of convenience and habit. I will endeavor to use female identifying to be more clear and inclusive.
Gassho,
Krista
st/lah

[Onka]

I didn't intend my comments on language to derail our discussion on Schireson's book.
Yes language is important, especially in relation to discussions around historical erasure and discrimination.
I appreciate people talking about their own interpretations and personal understandings around language.
Everyone, including myself mucks up or frankly, finds it difficult to keep up with changes in inclusive language (we need young folk to help us here).
I propose that we read this book in the spirit for which it was written i.e. the spirit of inclusiveness and we have a separate discussion around inclusive language after we finish the book.
This way I believe we'll all get the most out of this book and not be worried about offending folk.
Thoughts?
Gassho
Onka
ST

[Heiso]

I didn't intend my comments on language to derail our discussion on Schireson's book.
Yes language is important, especially in relation to discussions around historical erasure and discrimination.
I appreciate people talking about their own interpretations and personal understandings around language.
Everyone, including myself mucks up or frankly, finds it difficult to keep up with changes in inclusive language (we need young folk to help us here).
I propose that we read this book in the spirit for which it was written i.e. the spirit of inclusiveness and we have a separate discussion around inclusive language after we finish the book.
This way I believe we'll all get the most out of this book and not be worried about offending folk.
Thoughts?
Gassho
Onka
ST

Onka - I think when reading a book that discusses 'women' in zen it makes a lot of sense to ask what the term 'woman' means and if it is still fit for purpose. Apparently someone once said something about nothing being permanent, language is no different. So I don't see your comments as derailing the conversation.

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah

[Bokucho]

Onka - I think when reading a book that discusses 'women' in zen it makes a lot of sense to ask what the term 'woman' means and if it is still fit for purpose. Apparently someone once said something about nothing being permanent, language is no different. So I don't see your comments as derailing the conversation.

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah

I agree, regardless of the language used, there was gender discrimination in the past as well as now. Defining what the term "woman" means to the individual allows us to discuss how historical gender discrimination in our tradition has shaped our practice today, and how discrimination still occurs both within our practice and the world around us. I think the language aspect is a very relevant topic, personally. Most religious texts are translations for the people reading them, so understanding the language and agreeing with it's intent is of paramount importance.

Gassho,

Joshua
SatToday

[Doshin]

Learning from you all.

Doshin
St

[Naiko]

Hi all

Just to say I have done a recording of the Dogen fascicle Raihai-Tokuzui (Bowing to the Attainment of the Marrow) which is mentioned a few times in this chapter, if anyone wishes to listen. It is quite notable for its tone of gender equality in 13th century Japan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGBLhTYAJ20

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Thank you for posting this, Kokuu. It is very helpful to hear the context for these teaching stories.
Gassho,
Krista
st/lah