Zen Women - Preface and Chapter 1

[Shoka]

Dear All,

This week we will start reading Zen Women: Beyond Tea Ladies, Iron Maidens and Macho Masters by Grace Schireson. There is a lot in this book, and it is particularly relevant at this moment in time as it talks about gender discrimination and inequality.

The female Unsui of Treeleaf will be leading these discussions, but we really want everyone to feel included. This isn’t just a conversation among the girls, it is a chance for all of us to come together and speak about why this topic may be important, or if it isn’t. How discrimination occurred through the years and continues. And to learn so much about the women whose names we chant during retreats.

Since the topics of discrimination and inclusion are very hot button items right now, we want to remind everyone that this is a book club. Please keep the conversation focused on the book and examples that are relevant to this topic. Also please remember to use right speech, and attempt to assume that what people say is meant with good intentions. Let’s all come to the table with an open mind, ready to share and learn from one another.

With all that said, this week we will be reading the Foreword, Preface and Chapter 1. As is typical for the book club most weeks we will be throwing questions out to help start the conversation, but feel free to bring up anything else in this section that grabs your fancy or you want to discussion.

• Does “Oneness” answer the question of discrimination?
  
• Schireson talks about 4 ways to work through difficult passages of Buddhist canon, which do you apply or how do you work through portions of Buddhist scriptures which can be considered misogynistic?
  
• In hearing stories of old Zen Masters, do you believe they are all “Manly Man” as Schireson describes them?

Please talk amongst yourselves here too, comment on each other’s comments, and allow time for others to comment. This is a book discussion group, so let’s make it a conversation.

Gassho,
Shoka
Sat

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[Meian]

Is it too late to hop onto this? I have a strong interest in this topic.

Gassho, meian

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[Kokuu]

Is it too late to hop onto this? I have a strong interest in this topic.

Meian,

This is the first part so you haven't missed anything.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Kokuu]

Thank you for beginning this, Shoka! I am really looking forward to both the reading and discussion.

As regards this question, "In hearing stories of old Zen Masters, do you believe they are all “Manly Man” as Schireson describes them?", I do not think that all of the old Zen Masters were Manly Men.

My own inspiration comes from figures such as Ryōkan who come across as a gentle hermit figure, happiest when playing with children or practicing calligraphy in his hut. Keizan Jokin also seems to have had his most significant relationships with women, including his mother, and the wife and mother of his patron.

There is also this story about Hakuin in which he is said to have ended up caring for an infant for some time:

A beautiful girl in the village was pregnant. Her angry parents demanded to know who was the father. At first resistant to confess, the anxious and embarrassed girl finally pointed to Hakuin, the Zen master whom everyone previously revered for living such a pure life. When the outraged parents confronted Hakuin with their daughter's accusation, he simply replied "Is that so?"

When the child was born, the parents brought it to the Hakuin, who now was viewed as a pariah by the whole village. They demanded that he take care of the child since it was his responsibility. "Is that so?" Hakuin said calmly as he accepted the child.

For many months he took very good care of the child until the daughter could no longer withstand the lie she had told. She confessed that the real father was a young man in the village whom she had tried to protect. The parents immediately went to Hakuin to see if he would return the baby. With profuse apologies they explained what had happened. "Is that so?" Hakuin said as he handed them the child.

Some of the old Zen masters certainly could be characterised as manly men, or at least strong men, but I do not think that is the case for all by any stretch.

Having a tradition solely resting on a male lineage is, however, clearly unhealthy, regardless of whether the men were all manly or some were artistic and/or nurturing. Just as gender imbalance is unhealthy so, I believe, are gender norms. While we find some gentle and soft male Zen ancestors, I think that we will read in this book of many women who were strong and fearless, at odds with the usual stereotype of femininity.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Cooperix]

Shoka,

Thank you and the women Unsui of TL for this reading and discussion. I look forward participating in this important topic.

Gassho
Anne

~st~

[Onka]

Is it too late to hop onto this? I have a strong interest in this topic.

Gassho, meian

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You and me both Sister! I've been looking forward to this.
Gassho
Onka
st

[Onka]

Thank you Shoka and the other female identifying Unsui.
I've been looking forward to this book club read for some time and thank you for the reminder about right speech and assuming folk have good intentions. This Anarcha-Feminist has been known to lose control of her rage-o-meter, but I'd say I've come a long way in a year... or not.
Gassho
Onka
sat today

[Naiko]

Hi all,
I am looking forward to this discussion! I have noticed two references to this book/discussion not being for 'girls only.' I find it most interesting that when a topic is about women we must assure people that it is of interest to all. It is something one sees in our wider culture as well. The default is that books by and about men are of general interest and that books by and about women are of interest to women only. Curious, isn't it? Do you think the perception would be different if the title was different, say "History and Lives of Zen's Matriach's?" Maybe.

As far as "Oneness" answering discrimination, I think it's a no and yes. On the relative level: no, but on the absolute level, yes. We are taught that the two can't really be separated, and neither are they the same, is that right? Since we must function in the relative world, address it we must. And if we were to deny there is discrimination based on "Oneness," then we must deny the experiences of many people in this world. I prefer to think of Oneness as a total symphony of many notes, all the notes, not just one-though it may sound like one note sometimes.

I admit at one time I did think of Zen as suffering from the manly man thing. My first and only introduction to Zen many years ago was Kapleau Roshi's Three Pillars of Zen. And while many of the ideas of Buddhism really intrigued me and rang true, I was pretty intimidated by much of what I read. The stick? Oh, heck no! The striving for kensho, the testing of koans, and dokusan descriptions--all seemed very macho and convinced this introvert that Zen was not for her. At that point I had not read any other literature or poetry, so I avoided Zen for years afterwards. It wasn't until I actually met some Zen practitioners that I came around.

Sorry for the many sentences!
Gassho,
Krista
st/lah

[Shonin Risa Bear]

I was put off Zen for decades by the well-documented disappointing behavior of a certain male roshi in the U.S. I guess I was attached to the notion that someone who'd received transmission would not have done that ... so when I rediscovered my longtime friend Catherine as Kenshin seven years ago, I immediately felt there was a way forward for me -- happy to be rereading this with everyone. _()_


gassho
shonin sat/lah today

[Meian]

I am grateful to the women clergy of Treeleaf for leading this discussion.

I recognize the rules, and may sometimes choose silence. I have had my share of tangles with male teachers. However, it can go both ways due to the imbalances of our society, and the cultural norms and gender expectations we enforce on each other, consciously and otherwise.

This will certainly challenge my perceptions.

Gassho, meian

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[Seikan]

Apologies in advance for breaking the three sentence rule...

There's already so much to consider in these first couple of chapters, but so as to not get in over my head, I'd like to start by simply sharing one particular passage that I keep revisiting (from page 26):

"The Great Mother, or the embodiment of female spirituality, highlights issues of interdependence, relationships, and sexuality. While the Buddha and his followers emphasized the cooling of passion, the life of nonattachment free of desire, women more often concern themselves with the hands-on engagement with life's messiness."

This passage would seem to support the need for a more balanced approach to Buddhist practice: the cool, detached attitude toward life on the one hand, and the warm, compassionate engagement with the world on the other hand. I expect that this will be addressed further as we go deeper into the book.

When I read this section, I can't help but think of Dipa Ma, the 20th century lay Buddhist teacher from India that had a major influence on the Theravada/Vipassana movement here in the U.S. While she practiced in a different tradition, her approach had a very direct, Zen-like flavor to it in many ways. She was certainly fierce in her own dedication to practice, but she balanced that fierceness with a warm, loving attitude toward others that is often lacking in many of the classic (male-centric) Zen tales. That said, I'm eager to read about other women from the Zen tradition and how each of them embodied the practice in their own unique way.

This looks to be a great opportunity to face myself in the mirror and identify my own shortcomings as a self-identified feminist (especially with regard to Buddhism). I'm sure that my opinion of myself in that area is far greater than it should be.

Thank you all for this opportunity to discuss and learn.

Gassho,
Rob

-st-

[Cooperix]

Hello,

Krista, I think this is a very astute observation:

I find it most interesting that when a topic is about women we must assure people that it is of interest to all. It is something one sees in our wider culture as well. The default is that books by and about men are of general interest and that books by and about women are of interest to women only. Curious, isn't it?

A nun of even a hundred years standing shall respectfully greet, rise up in the presence of, bow down before, and preform all the proper duties toward a monk ordained even a day.

I must say rule #1 of the Eight Special Rules took my breath away. (p.5). How could that be? These were supposedly awakened men that made up these rules. I understand it was cultural, but the abolitionists of the early 19th century who tried to rid this country of owning another human being were also under the influence of cultural dictum. Somehow they managed to think for themselves... it is possible.
But, it gives me the deepest respect for the women who took this vow in order to become a follower of the Buddha. I bow to these sacred ancestors who had a head start on ego-shedding!

Wow!
Gassho,
Anne

~st~

[Hoseki]

Hi folks,

These are just some idle thoughts. My apologies if they don't seem to go anywhere.

I find myself agreeing with Krista's post a fair bit on the oneness business so I don't really have much to add.

But I wanted to add that I find the macho man aspect actually a turn off. I'm personally drawn to Stoic figures but more to the quiet enduring aspect (Yoda) rather than the tough guy aspect (Worf from Star Trek.) If that makes sense? Now I'm neither stoic nor macho and honestly I don't think I will ever be like that. Which is something that can be hard for me sometimes. Over the winter holidays my brother balked at me when I said I didn't watch Game of Thrones because it was too violent. It hurt.

I'm hoping to find out about some Nun's who exemplify compassion and wisdom without the bluster (macho business.)

I would also like to say, in my opinion, Shakyamuni (Buddha) was just a person. One whom I feel indebted but a person none the less. Sometimes when I think of the precepts I realize how open ended they are. But they need to be open so they can handle new situations. They provide a continuity to our behavior but because they are open ended there will be things that might not be addressed. Usually stuff that we think to be normal or common sense. The idea that women shouldn't vote strikes me as ludicrous but it was the norm where I live about 100 years ago. So I'm all for praising the Buddha but I'm open to disagreeing with him.



Gassho
Hoseki
Sattoday

[Onka]

Does “Oneness” answer the question of discrimination?
Schireson talks about 4 ways to work through difficult passages of Buddhist canon, which do you apply or how do you work through portions of Buddhist scriptures which can be considered misogynistic?
In hearing stories of old Zen Masters, do you believe they are all “Manly Man” as Schireson describes them?

Good morning comrades.
Firstly, thank you again to our female identifying Priest's and Unsui who are guiding us through this book.
Secondly, thank you to all female identifying members of Treeleaf Sangha and our broader Buddhism family.
Thirdly, thank you to all female identifying folk eveywhere who've come before me.
Finally I wish to remind folk that I am a new practitioner of just over 12 months with only a cursory understanding of our history lef alone our herstory.

The question of oneness in no way negates discrimination. I believe in oneness but within the understanding of interconnectedness of all folk and all things living and seemingly inanimate. Within Buddhism in times past I'd suggest that oneness was used as an excuse for discrimination. Today I'm sure that this is still a factor because we can't ignore the fact that misogyny is a thing and that we live in patriarchal societies for the most part. In saying that I'm not suggesting all Buddhist male identifying folk are misogynists but it is fact that no one can leave all of the societal baggage they've accumulated or been taught at the Zendo door. So today I'd suggest that ignorance plays more of a part in discrimination than finding excuses within Buddhist doctrine and history.

In regards to the four propositions the author proposes for how students work through difficult passages in the Buddhist canon I can take a bit from each.
I think that the historical Buddha was a man of wealth and privilege who at an age well after years of social, moral, ethical and political indoctrination decided that he needed to find some life lessons for himself. Yes, he became pretty switched on. Yes, so much so that I decided to try to live according to the basic teachings he gave upon the Oprah lightbulb moment he had.
I take a critical analysis approach to anything I read and that includes Buddhist stuff. With that being said you can't excuse misogyny or the internal politics of Buddhism from the time of his death until today, but you can contextualise it. Going forward misogyny and the erasure of female identifying teachers will not be tolerated.

As for the "manly men" description I'm doubtful. I think there would no doubt have been a culture of bullying and intimidation and a liberal dose of misogyny but that hardly makes someone a manly man. I'd suggest that discipline and indoctrination from within monasteries would no doubt mold men into men prone to maintaining a malecentric approach to teaching and recording of history but again this does not make a man a "manly man".

I'm really looking forward to the male identifying members of this Sangha offering their thoughts. It's my experience that most people have blind spots to discrimination of some kind.

Gassho
Onka
Sat today

[Heiso]

I'm late to the party but am looking forward to reading this and thanks to Kokuu for the gentlest of pokes to get involved. I'm also grateful to our female priests and unsui for leading us on this and look forward to hearing from the many different voices in the sangha.

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah