7/29 Zen Seeds: Pg 15, 16 and 17

[ChrisA]

Re: 7/29 Zen Seeds: Pg 15, 16 and 17

Alan, gassho! And touché! Would that we all could be so honest in such moments!

[AlanLa]

Re: 7/29 Zen Seeds: Pg 15, 16 and 17

Let me be more clear. My ego is the horsefly that keeps bumping into this given thread so I am now going to let it go by jumping off it's 100-ft pole and never come back to it again. Period.

I mean this in the nicest possible way, this thread is dead to me :twisted:

[Heisoku]

Re: 7/29 Zen Seeds: Pg 15, 16 and 17

Yeah right! :twisted:

[Shujin]

Re: 7/29 Zen Seeds: Pg 15, 16 and 17

Alan -- thank you for this week's post. Maybe you'll revisit it. Then it'll be a zombie thread.

Horsefly: Often times I've been the horsefly. What's difficult for me to see is not that I'm doing something that doesn't work; I can grasp that fairly quickly most of the time. I find myself assigning values to solutions that don't apply, however. (eg This is the right way to solve the problem, that is the wrong way) If I believe that I'm following the "right" solution, I'll continue to bash my head against the glass. My children and wife have helped me grow a bit in this regard. I still have a long way to go.

Loving: I play the role of the disappointed giver nearly every Christmas. As Matt accurately stated, I feel judged when someone doesn't feel the way I do about my gift. When I'm in an objective mindset, I see how selfish this is. I'm going to work on this in the coming holiday.

gassho,
Shujin

[Graceleejenkins]

Re: 7/29 Zen Seeds: Pg 15, 16 and 17

Zombie thread! :lol: Thanks a good one, Shujin!

[Myozan Kodo]

Re: 7/29 Zen Seeds: Pg 15, 16 and 17

Flip side to the horsefly: sometimes you got to stick with something? Again and again. An inverse reading, I know.

Loving: what goes around, goes around. And keeps going around. We need to try and be content with that. Anyway, nothing is given ... and by no one.

I enjoyed this thread. Thanks everyone.

Gassho,
Soen

[AlanLa]

Re: 7/29 Zen Seeds: Pg 15, 16 and 17

This zombie horsefly realizes he went too far. Hold lightly, don't reject outright how the gift is received, nor get overly concerned, that's the middle way. To recognize how a gift is received seems a good way to learn, so long as you accept the result and not be defensive if it's in the negative. Nor should you pat yourself on the back if it's in the positive. It's about the gift and act of giving, not you. So a little checking in to see how the thread is going seems ok as long as I don't wrap my ego around the result.

[Risho]

Re: 7/29 Zen Seeds: Pg 15, 16 and 17

Wow, again really, really deep posts.

1. The horsefly: I don't think there's much to add to everyone's awesome posts, but I think this can be very, very subtle. For instance, let's say we want to quit a habit. If we say ok, today's the day and I'm no longer going to do it. That's fine. But it's our approach. If we start out by trying to fix ourselves I think we've started off on the wrong foot already. Then when we slip up or do what we said we wouldn't do, we beat ourselves up and usually end up doing what we said we would stop doing in the first place. I've experienced this with quitting smoking, caffeine, etc. Sure those habits aren't good, but when I would hate myself for doing those things are having moments of weakness, I would start them again... the horse beating itself against the window.... that unconsciousness. But if we just sit with those things and experience the urges and not necessarily act on them (similar to shikantaza with just letting thoughts go), then I think we give them space and things happen much more naturally instead of being so forced... so ego driven.

2. Loving: ugh.. I feel this struggle whenever I buy people gifts especially my wife. I'm always so worried if she's going to like what I get her, and I forget about the simple expression of unattached giving, based on love. I usually end up spending way more money than I need to to try and impress her.

3. In another's place: ooo yeah jumping off the hundred foot pole. Time and time again, I know I grab on and resist. If I'm doing something of extreme importance, I can be like a laser, and I get very annoyed when that focus is disrupted. I know that sitting has helped me loosen my grip on what I want and just be with what is.

Gassho,

Risho

[Myoku]

Re: 7/29 Zen Seeds: Pg 15, 16 and 17

I'm a horsefly again and again, I guess we all are to a certain extend. How nice when we can realize this sometimes; sometimes at ourselves, sometimes at others. Its literally opening space when we realize it and can change a certain unaware or conditioned behavior.
_()_
Peter

[Dokan]

Re: 7/29 Zen Seeds: Pg 15, 16 and 17

Horsefly:

Zen has helped me wake up from Zen to be honest. When I first started practicing I had a very romanticized version in my mind. As the years have passed, the hair grayed and I've woke that plopping my butt down on a zafu everyday isn't Zen, and is.

Loving:

What struck me was the awareness of not completely giving something. Holding on to that thread, even if it's just approval of what was given.

In Another's Place:

Compassion in action is what came to mind when reading that. Having the pure moment by moment perspective to adjust from my own agenda seems so far away and inspiring to read about.

Gassho,

Shawn

Ps - One of my favourite pictures of Suzuki-roshi.

Attached files

[Tb]

Re: 7/29 Zen Seeds: Pg 15, 16 and 17

Hi.

Horsefly: Its perfectly ok to be the horsefly, just don't get stuck in it.
Sometimes you need to bang your head against the window, just to see that its there..

Loving: I have one question here, is the wrappingpaper part of the present?
And if so, why do you throw it away?

In anothers place: The thing here, in my humble view, is doing that which is right in front of you.
Another example is that of when you're sitting and the bell rings, you get up, or when you're sewing and skype calls you put down the needle and answer.
And in doing so, you do it immediately, you don't linger at the sitting or sewing, but fully commit to the thing at hand.

Thank you for your practice.
Mtfbwy
Fugen

[BrianW]

Re: 7/29 Zen Seeds: Pg 15, 16 and 17

Hello all,

Horsefly – Often it is much easier to fall back on repetitive behavior patterns we have used in the past. Sometimes this works….we use our experience to plan for course of action. Nevertheless, sometimes we are so set on our “plans” we do the same behavior over and over again. We ignore the fact that it results in our beating our head into a solid object, like the fly against the glass. Although we may not wish to hear it and the news may seem unpleasant, but those close to us can call attention to our self-defeating behavior and help us to wake up!

Love – To use the terminology of the psychologist Carl Rogers, we tend to give conditional positive regard to others…even our loved ones, perhaps especially our loved ones. In short, conditional positive regard means I will like/love you “if”….the “if” is often a big one….”if” you think a certain way, if you make me feel good, “if” you conform to my standards. Unconditional positive regard is when we give our love and acceptance without the “if.” This does not mean that we approve of negative behavior, but we still accept and value the person.
Modifying these concepts a bit, I can relate this to our reading by pointing out that at times I find it very challenging to allow those who I have strong emotional bonds with to have their freedom and not think of how their choice impacts my life. For example, I would love to have my daughter live in a geographical place close to me when she gets out of college and is on her own, but that might not be best for her life. I know this is not fair to her and it’s something I struggle with quite a bit.

As I write this I am sitting with a very sick little dog, he has been in our lives for over 10 years. This week was to be our one and only week of vacation at our cottage and my time has been spent looking after him and worrying ….a lot. I am on edge about this as I want to make sure he is not suffering and we are doing the right thing for him. I guess one point I am thankful for is that I do not mind a bit staying on the front porch with him, while other members of my family are out swimming, fishing, etc. This is no big moral choice I am making, I just feel this way. I guess in Christianity one would call it "grace" that I am so willingly about to accept my role I am not sure if there is a Buddhist equivalent? This is the type of love I believed is talked about in our reading. Nevertheless, I also know that my love for him is selfish at some level and I must be careful not to fall into the trap of using him as a prop in my life to make me feel better about myself, but respect him as an independent living being with his own life trajectory. (Note: Since the time I wrote this we had to put our dog to sleep. We are fine despite being saddened by this event. I will write more on this as I can collect my thoughts a bit.)

Gassho,
BrianW

[murasaki]

Re: 7/29 Zen Seeds: Pg 15, 16 and 17

Since I just joined the list I'm a bit behind, and can't follow all of the threads leading up to the current one. But I wanted to share a bit about the chapter called Loving.

My mother has a neighbour who is very nice, but a bit strange; she has different ideas about "social graciousness" and manners with people than we do, and often comes across as nosy, a tightwad, and over-familiar. But she has done some things for us that were very kind and helpful, so once when I came from France to stay with my mother, I gave the neighbour a gift of a bunch of beautiful French Provincial fabrics I spent a good deal of money on, because she is a quilter who collects fabrics.

Some time later, I asked how she liked the fabrics, thinking she'd have some quilts hanging around the house with them in it to show me. To my shock, she replied, "Oh, they're wonderful...I've made six handbags with them so far and sold them for forty dollars each."

Wow, I was blown away by that. It's one thing to do that, keep it secret, and say, "Yes, they're nice, thanks", and entirely another thing to actually tell someone you sold their gift that you spent no small amount of money on!

I still have a hard time getting over that -- and my mother, who is far more critical of her, brings that incident up frequently. I try not to get so worked up about her, and have more patience. As strange and frustrating as she is, I know it's not helpful to myself or anyone else to hold these thoughts and continue gossiping about them. (I also need to have more patience with my mother, who frustrates me with her willingness to gossip about her. While I agree with her on most counts regarding the neighbour, I think it's over the top to go on and on about every incident. She's retired, though, and looking for issues in life to take on, so she's taken on this one among others and I should just let it go and not try to change her if it causes an argument.)

This chapter has shown me that I can look at the incident in a different way...I gave the neighbour something that she liked to work with (fabric, which is candy for a quilter), and she watches her pennies so I gave her an opportunity to make some cash as well. I admit it's still hard for me to let go because she was so blatant about something I am taught to consider a big faux-pas, but I just need to keep on letting go, and keep on sitting.

I often have a hard time accepting mannerisms, choices and actions of others when I consider it something that "you just don't ever do." This is just one example.

gassho
Julia

[ChrisA]

Re: 7/29 Zen Seeds: Pg 15, 16 and 17

What a fantastic story to share, Julia. I am thinking of oh-so-many examples in my own life (one in particular related to a state colleague who's driving me crazy) in which that judgment pointing outward seems absolutely right and righteous to me... and your story, of course, reveals the powerful source of the judgment (uh, me).

Gassho for adding this great contribution.

[Hoyu]

Re: 7/29 Zen Seeds: Pg 15, 16 and 17

Julia wrote:
This chapter has shown me that I can look at the incident in a different way...I gave the neighbour something that she liked to work with (fabric, which is candy for a quilter), and she watches her pennies so I gave her an opportunity to make some cash as well. I admit it's still hard for me to let go because she was so blatant about something I am taught to consider a big faux-pas, but I just need to keep on letting go, and keep on sitting.

Great that you were able to overcome your initial reaction. Good practice!

Gassho,
John