WHAT IS ZEN? - Chap 6 - Beliefs and Ethics - P. 59 To bottom of P. 67

[Jundo]

Dear All Good People,

We will read the first half of Chapter 6 this time, ending at the bottom of P. 67 (where it begins to discuss the Precepts). Our topic is Rebirth and Karma. We will go a little slower because of all the study readings for Jukai, but we will keep going (I promise to finish within this lifetime).

I think that Norman Roshi is a bit fuzzy and ambiguous in discussing these topics this week, although I think it is really necessary. He doesn't seem to reject ideas of Rebirth and a very mechanical ("Good intentional actions lead to good results in this life or some future life, and likewise for bad") view of Karma, but neither does he really affirm them, and he leaves the possible details an open question. In fact, it seems pretty clear that a very literal and mechanical view of Rebirth and Karma has been an important part of Buddhism for thousands of years, and likely from the earliest teachings. Dogen's writings indicate that he believed in future lives and the system of Karma, as did many other Zen Ancestors of the past. He encouraged us to do good, and believed that volitional bad acts will be paid for in this life or a future life. Nonetheless, ideas of Rebirth where never so important to Dogen and most other Zen masters of the past or present compared to many other schools of Buddhism (such as the Tibetans and Theravadans who hold such beliefs to be very important in their teachings). The reason is the emphasis in Zen on this life, and the ability to be enlightened in this life to see through the cycle of birth and death.

I am also personally very skeptical on extremely detailed systems of Rebirth, although I close my mind to no possibility. It just is not so important to my practice. I sometimes write ...

Now, don't get me wrong: I believe that our actions have effects, and I believe that we create "heavens" and "hells". I see people create "hells" within themselves all the time, and for those around them, by their acts of greed, anger and ignorance. .I see people who live in this world as "Hungry Ghosts", never satisfied. I also believe that we are reborn moment by moment by moment, so in that way ... we are constantly reborn, always changing (the "Jundo" who began writing this essay is not the same "Jundo" who will finish it). Futhermore, I believe that our actions will continue to have effects in this world long after this body is in its grave ... like ripples in a stream that will continue on endlessly.

But what about those future lives, heavens and hells? Will I be reborn as an Asura or a cocker spaniel?

My attitude, and that of many other Buddhist teachers, is that ...

If there are future lives, heavens and hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

And if there are no future lives, no heavens or hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

Thus I do not much care if, in the next life, that "gentle way, avoiding harm" will buy me a ticket to heaven and keep me out of hell ... but I know for a fact that it will go far to do so in this life, today, where I see people create all manner of "heavens and hells" for themselves and those around them by their harmful words, thoughts and acts in this life.

And if there is a "heaven and hell" in the next life, or other effects of Karma now ... well, my actions now have effects then too, and might be the ticket to heaven or good rebirth.

In other words, whatever the case ... today, now ... live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ... seeking to avoid harm now and in the future too.

If you would like to read a couple of essays on Karma and Rebirth which I wrote awhile back, here they are.

Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6102-Jundo-Tackles-the-BIG-Questions-VI-%28Karma%29

Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII (Life After Death?)

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6245-Jundo-Tackles-the-BIG-Questions-VII-%28Life-After-Death-%29

There are many Buddhists today who say you "can't be Buddhist unless you believe in [very literal] Rebirth and Karma." I just don't believe so. See you in hell if I am wrong, I suppose. However, you may form your own views on this, and your insights are as good as anyone alive.

Just be good.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Mp]

Thank you for this Jundo. =)

For me, rebirth and karma are right here, right now. The actions we do have an affect on the world around us, whether they be good acts or bad acts. I have to be honest and don't care much for karma or rebirth in our next lives ... for me what does it matter? What is important to me, is what is happening now in this life. Rebirth can happen in each breath, in each moment of sitting, in each moment of acceptance of this life as it is, in each moment of understanding/clarity. It is in those moments where we can either break the chain of negative karma and/or produce karma that benefits all sentient beings.

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Anka]

Shingen...gassho well said. Looking forward to reading this section.

James F
Sat

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Tairin]

Shingen . Well said. You've expressed my thoughts on the topic.


Tairin
Sat today

[Shoki]

Also in agreement with Jundo and Shingen. I always suspected that some people's belief in literal rebirth is just wishful thinking. They can't bear the thought of there being no consciousness beyond this. So over the centuries we've come up with all these theories to support our egos. I've heard people say they believe in "life after death" because they fear the alternative. That's it? Well if there is none you wouldn't know anyway would you? Were you sitting around ten million years ago agonizing not being born yet?


Gassho
Sat Today / LAH
James

[MyoHo]

"Alive or dead?"
I'm not saying! No, Im not saying!

Gassho

MyoHo
ST

[Jishin]

WHAT IS ZEN? - Chap 6 - Beliefs and Ethics - P. 59 To End of P. 67

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Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jishin]

WHAT IS ZEN? - Chap 6 - Beliefs and Ethics - P. 59 To End of P. 67

Disciple to master:

What happens when we die?

Master to disciple:

How should I know? I am not dead yet.

----------------

Death Certificate: cause of death - birth.

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Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

But most Zen Buddhists don't quite believe that we just end up in the grave as dust either.

The wave on the sea rises and falls, but the wave is just the sea, and the sea rolls on and on. A leaf on a tree is just the tree and, when the leaf falls, the tree that is the leaf grows on. If we are just this universe all along then we never truly were "born" apart, nor do we truly "return" when we die to what has never been left (Zen Buddhism 101).

Something strange is afoot. A friend of mine once noted that, since something so seemingly ridiculous happened as your and my popping up in the middle of time and space with these lives, looking at all the physics and chemistry, biology and every twist and turn of history seemingly necessary for that fact then, well, there is likely more to the story then meets the eye. Maybe the ridiculous, since it happened once, might ridiculously happen again and again. Maybe some fix is in and the deck is loaded. And even if it is all blind luck and the deck is fair, keep dealing those cards long enough (or play with enough decks side by side) and, sooner or later, every hand comes up ... again and again. So, see you guys in the next deal.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

WHAT IS ZEN? - Chap 6 - Beliefs and Ethics - P. 59 To End of P. 67

I don’t know.

Your grandfather punched mine. My father punched yours. You buy me an ice cream. My son buys your son and ice cream and a teddy bear. Your grandson gives mine a great job.

My grandson says what great Karma!

My grandfather says what bad karma!

You and I met in at least 2 previous lives, father and grandfather and meet again in the future through our children and grandchildren. When we shake hands we have shaken hands and will shake hands again countless times from a linear time point of view where birth and death are arbitrary points in time. But time is not always linear.

No self, no karma, no problem. No wave, no karma, no problem. Just sea. Just emptiness.

It always comes down to not one, not two. No karma, karma. If not one and not two, then the middle way sounds good.

I like emptiness. It’s more relaxed, more fun. But that's just me. Others tend to like form, a little rigid for me. Teachers like the middle way. Balanced views. Correct but boring sometimes.

Zen philosophy is necessary until it’s no longer necessary. Then burn the books and chop wood, fetch water and Shikantaza.

Or not.


Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

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[Jundo]

[Kotei]

...
Something strange is afoot. A friend of mine once noted that, since something so seemingly ridiculous happened as your and my popping up in the middle of time and space with these lives, looking at all the physics and chemistry, biology and every twist and turn of history seemingly necessary for that fact then, well, there is likely more to the story then meets the eye. Maybe the ridiculous, since it happened once, might ridiculously happen again and again.
...

It sounds a little like one of the heavily criticised 'scientific god-proves' (not necessarily the christian one);
stating, that the complexity, from all living and dead things and the interactions is so intelligent designed, that there has to be a creator.

Personally, I think, that this idea originates in looking from the wrong side at the development.
When looking from the seemingly end of a development to its long, long ago, origin, it is only natural, that we're not able to see direct cause and action.
But isn't that the nature of hypercomplex systems?
To me, it feels a little like this may be the origin of Karma and Rebirth thoughts.
Hundreds of thousands of years of development are just too complex to understand when looking from the end of it.

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Meitou]

Fischer just about sums me up with this ..

I would never question anyone who told me he or she is sure there is rebirth.Nor would I question someone who is sure there is no rebirth...I myself don't know. That doesn't mean I don't have a feeling of certainty about rebirth. I do. But anything I say about it is going to be wrong

I don't know, I can't know, no-one can. Fischer is right in a way to be 'a bit fuzzy and ambiguous', I feel that this represents the Western zen approach to karma and rebirth pretty well. It seems to me that the important thing is to keep the hand of thought open, knowing as we do that we are all deluded beings living our own version of reality inside a greater and much different reality. Acknowledging that, how is it possible to say yes or no without anything to support that conviction, except the concepts created by our own minds?

There are certain things that I have had difficulty with; Tertons and temas, rainbow bodies, bardo states, incredible shrinking lamas, the precise and detailed karmic laws. That's partly why I chose to relocate from the Tibetan path to this one. I have also had difficulty with the idea of Immaculate Conception and the Resurrection, which is why I was never a Christian.

I don't recall at any point in my childhood ever believing in God or Father Christmas but I do recall believing truly that if I deliberately stomped on an ant or an earwig, that one day a giant size ant or earwig would come back and stomp on me. I was about 7 years old and not a Buddhist and believed in some really strange things, because as a child, my hand of thought had not yet learned to close.

There's something - me but not 'Me', that is, and I believe, always was and always will be; something that was never born and therefore will never die. And that which isn't me, but is me, you, all of this, the whole enchilada, is that thing which will always be. But then, as a child my ambition when I grew up was to be an air hostess or a Native American, so obviously 'anything I say about it is going to be wrong'.

We can't know, and not-knowing is good, it keeps us investigating and questioning and looking; it keeps the hand of thought open and receptive, it keeps us sitting.

My worthless two centesimi
Gassho
Meitou
satwithyoualltodaylah

[Shoki]

I have been going through these excellent comments and then I was reading Instructions for the Cook and this jumped out at me; "Therefore rejoice in your birth into the world.....Considering the innumerable possibilities in the timeless universe we have been given a marvelous opportunity."

Gassho
Sat Today / LAH
James

[Onkai]

Thank you, everyone, for this discussion. It is clarifying. There is one sentence in the reading, on p 67 that expresses what makes sense for me in Zen:

Anyone who purports to have it all figured out, that her religion has the final answer to all the horrific things that happen in this lifetime so that all can be received with equanimity and nothing will ever challenge faith, is either kidding herself or is in some sense monstrously removed from what it actually feels like to be a human being among other human beings.

I think the idea of keeping open the hand of thought is beautiful.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat