WHAT IS ZEN? - Chap 2 Zazen - P. 17 to end.

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  • Meitou
    Member
    • Feb 2017
    • 1656

    #16
    Originally posted by Eishuu
    I noticed that he mentioned returning to the breath quite a few times, 'focus', and 'concentration' and that you 'keep trying'. This sounds like it is slightly different from what we do.

    I liked what he said about preferences. I've noticed recently in daily life that I don't react as much to things and seem more centred. I'm finding it a bit disconcerting, as though there is something missing that I'm used to, like there's less 'me' there. I'm used to feeling things much more. Is this a normal experience with regular practice?

    Gassho
    Eishuu
    ST/LAH
    Yes, I've also had this experience Eishuu, and although I've viewed it positively as beginning to loosen grip on the concept of self, it can be an unnerving and sometimes frightening experience. It reminds me of those old cartoons when a character runs off a cliff, suddenly sees there is no ground beneath her/him and is suspended for a moment in the air. I've felt exactly like I was in that moment - it was a scary feeling but exciting to explore further.
    I was particularly interested in the question about creativity. I've also noticed ideas about a drawing or a piece of writing spring to mind while sitting; this has never surprised me as I've assumed it's all part of the mind relaxing and opening but it's hard not to let that creative narrative take place. I'm not as confident as Fischer that if an idea is good then it will naturally come back to me and this is something that I need to build confidence in as I can understand how not following that narrative can be of greater benefit to creativity, even as that appears to be a contradiction. I liked the analogy to turning the soil ready for plants to grow and flourish.
    I also liked the question about noise. I've often commented here on how I rarely sit in a quiet environment, my ambient meditation music consists of cars, scooters, buses, espresso machines, people shouting, and more recently building site music, drills, hammers, the crane working etc. I hear all of this when sitting but the act of just sitting with what is has in itself helped me to hear all of this with equanimity. I'm not finding that so easy with seagulls cackling on the building site crane at 3.00am, that's a work in progress
    Gassho
    Meitou
    Satwithyoualltoday lah
    命 Mei - life
    島 Tou - island

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    • Eishuu

      #17
      Meitou,
      I also found the part on creativity interesting. I often find that it is times when I am relaxing that ideas pop up. If I can have other times like this in the day other than Zazen then it is not such a flood of creativity when I sit. I must confess to stopping Zazen momentarily on the odd occasion to write down a haiku (because in my experience they don't always come back).

      With the not reacting so much thing, I think I have been trying to work out how it feels different from a numbness or repressed state where you are also feeling less. I don't think it's the same as I'm more relaxed, and when I do feel emotions deeply they are over quickly and there's no repression. It's something that's concerned me for a while.

      Gassho
      Eishuu
      ST/LAH

      Comment

      • Kotei
        Treeleaf Priest
        • Mar 2015
        • 4171

        #18
        Eishuu, Meitou,

        thank you for writing about that 'less me', 'off the cliff' experience.
        I think, I know that one... just that it felt more like dark, empty space.
        Frightening, but from time to time, I still catch myself, hunting for that experience again.
        Hmm. I think there is no 'less me', but that 'me' is maybe expanded much further, than we're used to.
        Balancing the mind, looking more into the 'all one bright pearl, me within' direction might feel freeing.
        Looking more from the direction of the 'self', it is a serious loss ;-).

        Regarding Zen and creativity, a talk on youtube from one of the Monty Pythons about creativity comes to my mind.
        He said, that a non-judging, non discriminating, error allowing, 'nothing is wrong or inappropriate', open environment and mindset is necessary for creativity. Working sessions with this mindset should have a start and an end. A fixed time length for creativity practice.
        Sounds strangely familiar :-).
        I enjoyed, reading John Daido Loori's book 'The Zen of Creativity / Cultivating Your Artistic Life' on this subject.

        Quite some of the Zen-Arts seem to be build upon the relation of these two.
        Playing with the 'me', the 'self', accepting that part of the final artwork will not be controlled by your conscious 'self'.

        Thank you all for reading together.
        Gassho,
        Kotei sat/lah today.
        義道 冴庭 / Gidō Kotei.

        Comment

        • Eishuu

          #19
          Kotei, that bit about the 'me' expanding further than we are used to and the reminder of 'one bright pearl' was really helpful...thank you!

          Gassho
          Eishuu
          ST/LAH

          Comment

          • Hoko
            Member
            • Aug 2009
            • 457

            #20
            A recent Video Blog entry from Brad Warner from 3 days ago. Seemed appropriate to the conversation...



            Gassho,
            Hōkō
            #SatToday
            LAH

            Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
            法 Dharma
            口 Mouth

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            • Geika
              Treeleaf Unsui
              • Jan 2010
              • 4984

              #21
              I have been trying to practice this kind of way of art lately, exploring what I really want to do with a pen when I let myself. Some of the results are surprising.

              Gassho, sat today, lah
              求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
              I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

              Comment

              • AlanLa
                Member
                • Mar 2008
                • 1405

                #22
                I think somewhere very deep in the archives on here might be a post from me complaining about the noise from my refrigerator when I sit zazen, which seems comical to me now. I've gotten over it. Sometimes it bothers my zazen now, other times it helps it, and times like when I sat today it is just there without much effect at all. I appreciated the inside/outside comments, and there is a Suzuki video about this that helped me a lot back then.

                As for preferences changing, zen, and I guess by extension zazen, has somewhat ruined sports for me. No longer are they as important, as vital, as maddening or loving as they used to be. I still "love" to watch my teams, but I have lessened my attachments to the point that I no longer live and die by them the way I used to. The Cubs winning the World Series in 2016 is an exception, however.
                AL (Jigen) in:
                Faith/Trust
                Courage/Love
                Awareness/Action!

                I sat today

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 40378

                  #23
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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                  • AlanLa
                    Member
                    • Mar 2008
                    • 1405

                    #24
                    Haha, as I recall, my thinking was much more that refrigerator sounds were BAD, but bird sounds outside were GOOD, and these days when I sit, like today, they are all just sounds.
                    AL (Jigen) in:
                    Faith/Trust
                    Courage/Love
                    Awareness/Action!

                    I sat today

                    Comment

                    • Shinshou
                      Member
                      • May 2017
                      • 251

                      #25
                      Originally posted by AlanLa
                      The Cubs winning the World Series in 2016 is an exception, however.
                      As a die-hard Cardinals fan, I urge you to let go of your attachment

                      Shinshou (Daniel)
                      Sat Today

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                      • AlanLa
                        Member
                        • Mar 2008
                        • 1405

                        #26
                        As a die-hard Cardinals fan, I urge you to let go of your attachment
                        Sitting with our aversions, like I did today, takes the fun away from sports rivalries. Based on recent Cubs WS history, Cardinal fans are only slightly less deluded buddhas than Cubs fans
                        AL (Jigen) in:
                        Faith/Trust
                        Courage/Love
                        Awareness/Action!

                        I sat today

                        Comment

                        • Mp

                          #27
                          Originally posted by AlanLa
                          Sitting with our aversions, like I did today, takes the fun away from sports rivalries. Based on recent Cubs WS history, Cardinal fans are only slightly less deluded buddhas than Cubs fans
                          Please remember Al ...

                          Part of our ritual here, Al, is to put "sattoday" on our posts, so I ask that you do. We shall have sat Zazen before posting and chat.

                          Gassho
                          Shingen

                          Sat/LAH

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                          • Jundo
                            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 40378

                            #28
                            Please include it with your signature because it encourages others. We practice for helping and encouraging others. Thank you. Al.

                            So, yes, "SatToday“ is our ritual and rule around here. One of the few that we have. It is not about you so much, but about encouraging the group and reluctant sitters. I appreciate it.

                            Dear All, Treeleaf Sangha is a Practice Place centered on the daily Sitting of Shikantaza Zazen. We ask all our members to have sat Zazen sometime in the preceding day (today or yesterday) before posting in this Forum and joining in discussion. Please have "Sat" before any "Chat". gassho1 Also, both as


                            Gassho, Jundo

                            SatTodayLah
                            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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