8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

[Rich]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

2-17
"You should spend your time carrying out what is worth doing. Among the things you should do what is the most important? You must understand that all deeds other than those of the buddhas and patriarchs are useless."

so, if you act like a buddha, you'll do just fine. Hint: buddhas do a lot of just sitting.

[Jundo]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

Jundo
FOR EXAMPLE, I bet all these references to the unimportance of food and clothes ... were because the monks were grumbling about the bad food and the clothes being so poor in the monastery, in the cold and snow ... and Dogen had to keep morale up.

Good deduction.

Gassho

What's more, Dogen's monks in those days were a hodgepodge of refugees with various backgrounds, some who were almost forced into studying with Dogen because their own teacher (who taught in a different style from Dogen) was outlawed by the government.

You can read more about that here (please read from the bottom of page 32 "Dogen's charisma probably met its greatest challenge" ... to the end of page 34.

http://books.google.com/books?id=BnLOFw ... hu&f=false

Herding cats!

The change in Dogen's writing style in his later years may be due in good part to this ... Summarized here ...

The picture of the latter years of Dogen emerges as that of a man struggling with disciples who had come to him already trained in doctrines of Original Enlightenment, Japanese esoteric Buddhism (mikkyo), and the naturalism of the Daruma school, whose understanding of Buddhism was swayed by these traditions in ways of which Dogen did not approve and that Dogen was unable to counter conclusively. Significantly, this was also a time in which the growing Pure Land tradition was questioning the value of the monastic vinaya. This context would explain the evolution in his writing from his early dynamic engagement with contemporary Buddhist issues to a dogmatic condemnation of doctrines, practices, and teachers during his later years. His late emphasis on the training of his disciples at the Eihei-ji may be evidence of a kind of desperation to leave behind at least something of his original vision. In this sense Professor Sugio may be right in seeing Dogen's final intention for the Shobogenzo as a legacy to future generations. But, as we have seen, this is a highly ambiguous and controversial legacy, in light of the problem of which part of the Shobogenzo represents the "true" Dogen.
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Dog ... putney.htm

You can read about the Daruma-shu and Dogen in greater detail here ...

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Dog ... _Soto.html

My point is that Dogen had to herd cats, keep all these very different and disagreeing people motivated, unified somehow. He had them practicing in ways that were different from their earlier teachers, and with which some of them might have had personal and doctrinal disagreements. He had to avoid "Mutiny on the Bounty" on the S.S. Eiheiji.

This all contributed to a change in Dogen in his later years ... He became more the tough captain to keep the sailors in line.

This is the Dogen who shines through in the Zuimonki, which is largely from that period.

Gassho, Jundo (also who has to herd some cats around here ... one of whom is named "Will" :P )

[will]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

Thanks for posting the links.

Meow.

W

[Bansho]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

Hi Jundo,

Are you familiar with Senne and Kyogo's commentary on the Shobogenzo (i.e. the Gokikigakisho or Gosho) and do you happen to know if it's available in English (or German)? It's something I've been wanting to look into since reading about it in Bodiford's book, but I haven't managed to find it yet.

Gassho
Bansho

[Pasang]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

A summation for me is as follows:
The only reality is now – all is impermanent- let our fear of death leave us- awaken fully to life now- pledge not to waste a moment –resolve to practise the way in each precious moment – vow to follow the precepts in each of these dear moments -all this through the realisation that we are sufficient in this moment.

[Rich]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

2-18
“If we are free from holding on to what we have yet do not seek after what we don’t have, either way is all right. Still, it would be better to mend torn clothing, in order to keep it for as long as possible and not pursue acquiring new clothing.”

Sorry, I'm jumping ahead. Maybe I was a Dogen monk in a previous life cause I've had some clothes for over 20 years :lol:

[Jundo]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

So I've been reading a bit on the Dragon Gods --- http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/hachi-bushu.shtml

Would it be correct to just treat these stories as mythical folklore?

Hi Chugai,

The short answer is that ... from the time Buddhism began in ancient India (right in the very earliest writings and stories attributed to the Buddha, although not written down for centuries after his death, but certainly from the start) ... Buddhism contained in its Suttas references to hundreds of traditional Indian gods (small 'g'), devils, spirits, creatures and the like. As the religion moved on to old China, then medieval Japan and such, it incorporated and found room for countless local spirits and deities from those cultures. In Japan, the Shinto religion and Buddhism were practically merged in many way, until about 150 years ago (most Zen temples in Japan will still have a Shinto Shrine somewhere in the temple). Dogen's 13th century writings are filled with references to many Japanese deities and spirits.

The link you posted is an excellent example (one of the best collections on the internet, by the way, of "who's who" in Buddhist art).

Now, are they real? Are they just "myth"? Are they cultural expressions of ancient peoples that, yet, express some deep "truths" about the human and natural condition (as expressed, for example, by Joseph Cambell's "The Power of Myth") ...

I will fetch wood and carry water on that one too ... although I am pretty much in the "Joseph Cambell" camp. I once wrote this about Santa Claus ...

Actually, I had a hard time, for many years, incorporating into my practice many figures such as Kannon and Jizo (and many of the more arcane rituals and customs of Buddhism such as some chants and ceremonies directed to these very same "folks").

I have some cautions I would offer both to people who say (a) these things do exist in a concrete way, and those folks who say (b) they do not. While both those extremes may be correct (only the universe knows for sure, and I remain an open minded mystic-skeptic), I have come to see "them" as archtypes, representing real characteristics of human life and (since we are just the universe) thus the universe.

In other words, in a nutshell: When we feel in our hearts and act upon love and compassion, thereby love and compassion exists as a real, concrete aspect of the world which our hearts and acts create. And since, in our view, there is no "inside" or "outside" ultimately, what is inside you is just as much "the universe" and concrete reality as the moon, gravity and the stars. That is "Kannon", in that way a real and concrete aspect and 'force' of the world.

I believe in Buddhist Heavens and Hells, Buddhas (apart from the historical Shakyamuni) and Boddhisattvas, and all the rest of the Buddhist cosmology, in much the spirit of that famous essay ... "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus". Did you ever read that? A little girl wrote to a newspaper editor, back in 1897, saying that she'd heard from friends that there is no Santa Claus. "Is it true?", she asked. Part of the response ran like this ...

What? You don't believe in Santa Claus?

GassHo Ho Ho, Jundo

VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except [what] they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

http://www.newseum.org/yesvirginia/

You may also want to take a quick peak here (the talk is gone ... but click on the link that says "WATCH O-HARAI CEREMONY" ...

http://blog.beliefnet.com/treeleafzen/2 ... ing-1.html

When we first moved into the old farm that is Treeleaf Japan, and mostly on my Japanese wife's insistence, we had the Shinto Priest out to "appease" the spirits attached to the land, and cleans the place.

Did it help? Was it true?

As an old joke goes ... "It sure couldn't hurt". ...

Gassho, J

[Dosho]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

Hi all,

Some thoughts:

2-13 -- My first thought after reading this section was, "Is he talking about what I think he's talking about?" Yes and no...certainly a monk should be discreet while in the changing room, but here I think Dogen is using it as a metaphor to carry the precepts with us wherever we go. Basically, practice what you preach. Off stage or on stage we are always in the spotlight.

2-14 -- I had to look up the definition of "sagacity"; guess I wasn't keen enough! I have often thought that those with a lot of book learning who are full of thoughts, facts, and figures could have difficulty studying the Way because of everything that must be unlearned, but to Dogen it doesn't really matter if you are sharp or dull. If you are truthful with yourself and your teacher, there is nothing in such distinctions that bears upon walking the path.

2-15 -- I must admit this one left me confused since the point seemed to be that you shouldn't seek fame or profit. However, Dogen also seemed to say that those who did think of such things should just relate them to becoming a buddha. If I study the Way I could become a wise sage who is deeply respected, but if that were even a whisper of a thought, I doubt another moment should be spent thinking about it. So, either he's saying fame and profit are meaningless and took some poetic license or I missed the point entirely...probably more likely the latter.

2-16 -- This section touches upon an area of existence that I still struggle with often: death. I had previously thought that the Way teaches us to accept that death could come at any moment and that such should never be a concern. I'll admit right off that the thought of dying today scares me with so much uncertainty, although I do know intellectually that this keeps me clinging to this body and this life. Despite that, I have not been able to let that fear go and I imagine that even an experienced practioner would have such moments. It is undoubtedly the one thing that will challenge me the most and I cannot currently conceive of how I could be less fearful. This section also deals with clinging to things besides death like where money will come from and how I will making a living in the future. Perhaps not as fearful, but clinging all the same.

2-17 -- This was Dogen's response to the questions raised in the last section: death happens...to everyone...that's it. Don't run from it, embrace it.

[Jundo]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

Hi Jundo,

Are you familiar with Senne and Kyogo's commentary on the Shobogenzo (i.e. the Gokikigakisho or Gosho) and do you happen to know if it's available in English (or German)? It's something I've been wanting to look into since reading about it in Bodiford's book, but I haven't managed to find it yet.

Gassho
Bansho

Hi B,

I received this information from the person I mentioned to you ...

As to the Gosho, I totally agree that it would be great to have all of that in English. Alas, I do not expect that in my lifetime. However, I know that there are excerpts of it around that I have seen. I believe Shohaku Okumura may have translated some sections, and perhaps Kaz Tanahashi. I have seen the Gosho commentary on Genjokoan somewhere. You might contact Shohaku or Kaz to see what they have from the Gosho.

[Bansho]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

Hi Jundo,

OK, I suspected something along those lines. Thanks very much for the clarification.

Gassho
Bansho