8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

[Jundo]

Hi,

We will resume our readings of Shobogenzo-Zuimonki this week with 2-13 to 2-17.

A central theme might be "Do Not Pass Your Days In Vain" ... a fitting topic for the eve of our Ango 100-Day Practice Season ...
...beginning Saturday, 8/29.

Gassho, J

[Tb]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

Hi.

2-13

do not discriminate between inside or outside or between bright or dark.

Another saying someone always likes to say is " Do not separate between hot and cold"

And a question, Where do you hide that "what should be hidden"?

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Rich]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

2-13
"Therefore as a practitioner of the Way, (you should) keep the Buddha’s precepts in mind, refraining from committing evil even though no one might see you or notice (what you do); do not discriminate between inside or outside or between bright or dark."

Your actions should be in accordance with the precepts and your situation, regardless of who is watching or not watching. So its always just one, not two.

[BrianW]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

Hello all,

A bit of free association for me this week….

If learning the Way in the morning, I wouldn’t mind dying in the evening

I thought what can bring about such courage?

If we do not save ourselves, when, by rare chance, we have been born [in a human body] and are about to encounter the buddha-dharma, when will we (be able to save ourselves)?

I sort of got stuck on the word “save”…..The notion of “salvation” came to mind. How can we be “saved”?

I thought what can overcome death, or, if you prefer, rebirth? Al l of this conjured up the opening of the Heart Sutra….

Avolokitesvara Bodhisattva, Awakened One of Compassion,

In Prajna Paramita, theDeep Practice of Perfect Wisdom

Perceived the emptiness of all five conditions,

And was free of suffering.

Gassho,
BrianW

[StephanCOH]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

2-13: It's not that you keep the precepts because of other people, but because you keep the precepts. Inside, outside, hidden or obvious ... it does not matter.

[Hoko]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

2-13: Don't be duplicitous in your behavior. Secular folks act with propriety regardless if someone is watching. Similarly, when following the buddha-dharma, obey the precepts whether or not you are being seen.

2-14: Persistence and determination count for more than does God-given, inherent ability or intelligence. Cultivate a strong aspiration. Finally, life is short. Don't waste time on foolish things (like plotting revenge).

2-15: People clinging to material things are not able to escape from samsara because (ironically) they are not thinking about their "self" at all (their "big self", that is). They need a broader perspective (i.e. they are part of something bigger than themselves) and rather than focus on fame and profit of the material world, seek the profit of eternal happiness or the fame of a Buddha.

2-16: I'm going to go out a little farther in this paraphrasing. To me, it seems the message is pretty deep: you are going to die. Period. It's a great fortune that you have a human form and can access the buddha-dharma and follow the Way. It's a shame that people throw that opportunity away and cling to the material. Make up your mind to practice the way NOW. Everything else needs to take a back seat. How you are going to make a buck tomorrow is not as important as how you practice the Way today. If your practice is interfered with by thoughts of tomorrow's livelihood, how you will clothe yourself in the winter, etc. then despite your outward appearance of following the Way, your efforts are entirely useless! Learn the way NOW (in the morning) and when the evening comes (and it will come inevitably) then you won't mind dying. In fact, you will have already died. This is similar to admonitions I have read elsewhere that tell us to "die on the cushion". "Kill" the self (ego). I may be off base but that was that I took from this passage...

2-17: Very simply: You have a limited time to pursue the Way. Focus on what's important and cultivate an attitude of aspiration (There's a great Pali word for this: "Chanda" which is aspiration for what is good, skillful and wholesome rather than "tanha" which is the thirsting for pleasant feelings that leads to suffering as per the Four Noble Truths. Many Buddhist newbies confuse the two and ask "How can you want liberation/enlightenment when that's just another desire?" The answer is chanda is good, tanha is bad. Easy-peesy, rice and cheesy...).
And finally, very applicable here is another famous quote from Dogen Zenji: "Practice as though your hair was on fire!!"

[Rich]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

2-14
"In the same way if the aspiration to seek the Way is earnest enough when you practice shikantaza (just sitting), study the koans or meet your teacher, though the aim is high you will hit the mark, and though it is deep you will fish it out. Without arousing such aspiration, how can you complete the great matter of the Buddha-Way in which the samsara of life-and-death is cut off in a single moment?"

Just keep trying. The stronger my attachment the more I grieve for its loss. Life and death must be the big kahuna

[StephanCOH]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

2-14: Practice! Do it the best way YOU can. Don't get stuck in any concepts of talent, good, bad or whatever. Your practice is your practice and if you do it wholeheartedly there is nothing more to do.
Plus you have to see through the concept of impermanence. Which is not some intellectual concept but the whole world that surrounds us. Every attachement bears the grief that loss will bring.

[StephanCOH]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

2-15: That's a tough one. I interpret it as a call to practice. Open the perspective, realize the interconnectedness and impermanence of all things instead of hunting for worldly profit and fame.

[Jinyu]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

2-16: I see two parts in this teaching
the first part : "It is regrettable to spend our days and nights vainly thinking of our livelihood tomorrow without casting aside the world which should be cast aside, without practicing the Way which should be practiced. Just make up your mind to learn the Way and die today."
Where Dogen emphasize on just doig what must be done in the moment without anything special to get. It makes me think about a part of the shobogenzo, gyogi, where he speaks about the simple and endless practice of the patriarchs.

And a second part : "If you ostensibly continue practicing the buddha-dharma but secretly worry about such things as clothing for winter or summer and livelihood for tomorrow or the next year, then despite the appearance of learning the Way opposed to the ordinary world (it is equally useless)".
Here Dogen clearly tells us, the practice is one part of things. But the "state of mind", or the intentions you get when you practice are also VERY important.

We just need to practice with sincerity, with flesh and bones as Deshimaru sensei said, and without waiting something special. At least, that's what I humbly see in this talk.

Gassho,

Luis

[Rich]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

2-16
"Just make up your mind to learn the Way and die today."

"Without this sort of aspiration, you will be unable to attain the Way regardless of how many millions of years or thousand times of life-and-death you practice. "

I guess I need to step it up a notch

[Tb]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

Hi.

2-14

True practice of the Way must be easy.

It depends only on whether one’s aspiration is firmly determined or not. A person who arouses true aspiration and studies as hard as his capacity allows will not fail to attain [the Way].

Put your whole mind into the practice of the Way.

Only if you have a mind unconcerned about inferior intelligence or dull faculties, or ignorance or dullness, will you surely attain enlightenment.

Practice as best you can without concerning yourself about things not important.
He also say's "if you want to you already have it".

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[will]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

2-14

I believe this. It depends only on whether one’s aspiration is firmly determined or not. A person who arouses true aspiration and studies as hard as his capacity allows will not fail to attain [the Way]. We have to be careful to concentrate on and directly carry out the following practice: first of all, just maintain the aspiration to earnestly seek [the Way]. For example, a person who desires to steal a precious treasure or to beat a powerful enemy or win over a beautiful woman of high nobility will constantly seek an opportunity to accomplish these tasks in any situation or occasion, though various things are changing, since his mind is always occupied with this desire. If his desire is that enthusiastic, he will not fail to fulfill it.

I think this relates to a lot of people practicing here.

Only if you have a mind unconcerned about inferior intelligence or dull faculties, or ignorance or dullness, will you surely attain enlightenment.

The great thing about Treeleaf.

Precisely because this is reality, the Buddha preached it to all living beings, the patriarchs taught only this truth in their sermons and writings. In my formal speeches and lectures too, I emphasize that impermanence is swift; life-and-death is the great matter. Reflect on this reality again and again in your heart without forgetting it, and without wasting a moment. Put your whole mind into the practice of the Way.

I just want to say. With all the talk of practicing like your hair is on fire and such, it can cause a little too much goal oriented practice. That's my experience; not what Dogen is saying.

Remember that you are alive only today in this moment. Other than that, [practice of the Way] is truly easy.

There ya go.

2-15

If they think of fame, they should aspire to obtain the fame of a buddha, a patriarch or an ancient sage. Doing so, wise people in future generations will respect them.

Yeah. I don't know about that one. Just my experience.

2-16

Without this sort of aspiration, you will be unable to attain the Way regardless of how many millions of years or thousand times of life-and-death you practice. If you ostensibly continue practicing the buddha-dharma but secretly worry about such things as clothing for winter or summer and livelihood for tomorrow or the next year, then despite the appearance of learning the Way opposed to the ordinary world (it is equally useless). There could be such a person, but as far as I know such an attitude cannot be in accordance with the teaching of the buddhas and patriarchs.

Not sure there Dogen huh?

2-17

Students of the Way, it goes without saying that you must consider the inevitability of death. Even if you don’t consider this right now, you should be resolved not to waste time and refrain from doing meaningless things. You should spend your time carrying out what is worth doing. Among the things you should do what is the most important? You must understand that all deeds other than those of the buddhas and patriarchs are useless.

Dogen's writing sometimes rubs me the wrong way. I don't know. I guess it's that he's talking to monks. Different situation.

Gassho

[Jundo]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

I just want to say. With all the talk of practicing like your hair is on fire and such, it can cause a little too much goal oriented practice. That's my experience; not what Dogen is saying.

Taigen Leighton, in his book on Dogen and the Lotus Sutra, offers an interesting comment on this. He quotes a Dogen reference to the last line of the Sandokai that is "Do not waste your [practice] days and nights in vain". Taigen concludes, however, that despite all this emphasis on hard effort and "not wasting time" in practice, "time is useful simply in the interest of the appreciation and expression of all the particular myriad things". In other words, Dogen is encouraging us to not waste time so that we may just fully realize this present time - where we realize that nothing is ultimately possible to waste! 8)

You can read that at the very bottom of p111 and top of p112 here ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=uEha2I ... q=&f=false

Kinda ties in with the next part you quote:

Remember that you are alive only today in this moment. Other than that, [practice of the Way] is truly easy.

2-16

... but secretly worry about such things as clothing for winter or summer and livelihood for tomorrow or the next year, [/b]

You know, I almost regret selecting the Zuimonki as the reading assignment. The reason is that Dogen can seem such a hard-ass sometimes, although we have to remember that he is a General trying to keep up his "troops'" morale and spur them on. These passages are meant for monks ... and really seem harsh unless we remember that he is trying to keep his troops' asses on the cushions during the hard, cold, snowy, long, lonely winters in a monastery in the middle of nowhere, day after day. No easy task, unless you preach a little "fire and brimstone", which is what General Dogen does to his men.

FOR EXAMPLE, I bet all these references to the unimportance of food and clothes ... were because the monks were grumbling about the bad food and the clothes being so poor in the monastery, in the cold and snow ... and Dogen had to keep morale up. So, he emphasized again and again how one must not care about food and clothes. Just a hunch.


Gassho, J

[will]

Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

Jundo
FOR EXAMPLE, I bet all these references to the unimportance of food and clothes ... were because the monks were grumbling about the bad food and the clothes being so poor in the monastery, in the cold and snow ... and Dogen had to keep morale up.

Good deduction.

Gassho