Realizing Genjokoan - Chapter 3 - P 42 to end of Chapter

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40805

    Realizing Genjokoan - Chapter 3 - P 42 to end of Chapter

    Gettin' back to the Genjo ...

    We will spend a couple of weeks just on the last about four pages of Chapter 3 (the section called "Genjokoan) to let all the insights of Chapter 3 settle a bit, and to let folks catch up.

    In these last few pages, Okumura Roshi brings the insights on "Emptiness" which we have been discussing back to the first three sentences of the Genjo, which present three simultaneously true ways to experience reality. I have to say that I completely agree with Okumura Roshi on his conclusions and interpretations of Dogen, but I sometimes might explain it a bit differently. (Maybe it is like two bakers who bake the exact same cake with the same ingredients, but I would stir the batter a little differently). Okumura Roshi's way of expression sometimes seems a bit complicated to me. In my book on "How to Read Dogen" that will be published next year by Wisdom Co., I explained these lines as follows, my way of cake stirring. Maybe my words just complicate things more.

    Does this chapter start to come together for you? Are you getting a handle on how these three sentence/perspectives come together?

    ============

    Dogen begins by offering a first perspective on the world, in which there are apparently weak and inadequate humans (us) who are beings coming and going in life between our birth and death, and in contrast to that, some state of idealized perfection above us and distant. A gap appears between our imperfect lives and the idealized and distant state of perfection that we picture in mind, the state of a “Buddha,” which appears so far from the state of imperfection and sorrow where we seem to live.

    In Buddhism, we often struggle and strive to practice hard, during the time between our birth and death (and perhaps, say many traditional Buddhists, in lives to come as well) to climb some ladder in our minds to get from our present fallen state to the heights of perfection and freedom of a Buddha. Thus, Dogen begins:

    When the world is seen as separate things in Buddhist teachings, there is human delusion and there is distant enlightenment to achieve, there is Buddhist practice to move us from one to the other, there is birth and there is death, and there are Buddhas and sentient beings apart.

    But one can encounter the world another way too, without making judgments of near or far, flawed or flawless, perfect or imperfect, high or low, and without applying mental categories and thoughts of separation and individual things. Buddhas and sentient beings are then experienced as not apart, not separate. Enlightenment is never hidden to clear eyes, even in this superficially confused world, once we learn to see. One even can drop away ideas of coming and going, birth and death, and instead experience an ongoing continuity and wholeness somehow beyond time, beyond birth and death. What happens then? [This is the "puree" of Emptiness, in which all drops away into Wholeness:] Thus:

    When the myriad things are realized as each without an individual self, there is no delusion and no enlightenment in separation, no Buddhas and no sentient beings, no birth and no death.

    Yet we don't stop there. We can experience this life and world in both of the foregoing ways at once. The result is a bit tricky to get one’s head around, but it is very wise. It is like saying that, although Buddhas and ordinary sentient beings in their ignorance are not apart right here and now, if ordinary beings continue to think and act ignorantly they will not realize such truth. We have to think (and non-think, putting aside divisive and judgmental thoughts) and act more like Buddhas, freeing ourselves from excess desires, anger, and divided thinking in order to make the presence of Buddha appear to our eyes and in our hearts. Even when we don’t think and act like it, the fact is that we are still Buddha nonetheless, although our ignorance and poor behavior will keep that truth hidden from us and cause suffering. This is Dogen’s path of “practice-enlightenment,” in which we practice acting as a Buddha now in order to realize that Buddha has been here all along.

    We also learn to see through all the divisions and seeming imperfections of the world, even as they appear to continue to exist in the world as divided, imperfect things. For example, we see many flaws in life and society, yet we also learn to drop all judgments about what is flawed or flawless. Instead, all things become just what they are without our mental criticism, each a kind of shining jewel in its own way, even those things that we usually resist or find abhorrent. However, the uglier and more abhorrent something in life is, such as harm done to children or serious character flaws in ourself, the more deeply buried and hard to see is that shining light. Thus, although this world and all things may shine within (and so, from that perspective, they do so without need of polishing), we still have to keep polishing in our practice to bring out that shine. So, we keep working to fix the problems in our life and this world. In one sense there are no problems to fix, yet in another sense there are many, some very ugly, and we need to keep on our toes. This is a world of flaws, yet not. This is a world of strife, yet not.

    We can even come, through our Zazen, to experience that face of the world that somehow continues on beyond all the apparent coming and going of things, and then this is a world of birth and death, yet not. There is an overriding Peace and Wholeness that embraces this world in both times of war and times of peace. There is something that keeps on churning away through all the apparent birth and death on the surface, like a sea that continues flowing on and on even as waves appear to rise and fall temporarily on its face. Beyond some simple ideas of one versus many, there is an unbroken Wholeness that sweeps in all the superficially individual things of the universe (including you and me), and that sweeps away birth and death even in a world of birth and death. There is a Beauty that shines as/in/and beyond all this planet's beauty and ugliness. All such ways of seeing—me and you, birth and death, beauty and ugliness as well as something transcendent—become true at once, as one. Thus:

    In the Buddha Way, one must leap clear and right through both the view of abundance and the view of lack; and so there are again birth and death, delusion and enlightenment, sentient beings and Buddhas.

    All the separate things, delusion and enlightenment, ordinary sentient beings and Buddhas, are apart yet not apart, the same yet not at all as they were before.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-25-2019, 04:04 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Shonin Risa Bear
    Member
    • Apr 2019
    • 923

    #2
    "...one must leap clear and right through both the view of abundance and the view of lack..."

    Ah.

    Gratitude.

    Bow, bow, bow.

    gassho
    doyu sat/lah today
    Visiting priest: use salt

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 40805

      #3
      Originally posted by Doyū
      "...one must leap clear and right through both the view of abundance and the view of lack..."

      Ah.

      Gratitude.

      Bow, bow, bow.

      gassho
      doyu sat/lah today
      I do a bit of a freer "translation" of the Genjo in my book for aiding Clarity.

      Gassho, J

      STlah
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • Kevin M
        Member
        • Dec 2018
        • 190

        #4
        Originally posted by Jundo
        Does this chapter start to come together for you? Are you getting a handle on how these three sentence/perspectives come together?
        The first three lines of the Genjokoan are surprisingly clear now having been through this chapter and the discussion. The re-translation helps a lot:

        Originally posted by Jundo
        When the world is seen as separate things in Buddhist teachings, there is human delusion and there is distant enlightenment to achieve, there is Buddhist practice to move us from one to the other, there is birth and there is death, and there are Buddhas and sentient beings apart.
        ...
        When the myriad things are realized as each without an individual self, there is no delusion and no enlightenment in separation, no Buddhas and no sentient beings, no birth and no death.
        ...
        In the Buddha Way, one must leap clear and right through both the view of abundance and the view of lack; and so there are again birth and death, delusion and enlightenment, sentient beings and Buddhas.
        This might be a bit of a technical question, but why do you translate "dharma" as "world" and "things" in the above? Like I thought dharma was more like the teaching or in some contexts "the way" (sort of like "the Tao").

        Gassho,
        Kevin
        ST

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 40805

          #5
          Originally posted by Kevin M
          The first three lines of the Genjokoan are surprisingly clear now having been through this chapter and the discussion. The re-translation helps a lot:



          This might be a bit of a technical question, but why do you translate "dharma" as "world" and "things" in the above? Like I thought dharma was more like the teaching or in some contexts "the way" (sort of like "the Tao").

          Gassho,
          Kevin
          ST
          Hi Kevin,

          I am glad that it was helpful.

          The Sanscrit term "Dharma" (Dhamma in Paii, and 法 in Chinese-Japanese) can be confusing to folks because it carries three rather different, but actually overlapping, meanings in Buddhist lingo.

          One is something very close to "phenomena", which means the seemingly individual things, properties and events which happen in the universe and all reality. Each is a "dharma." "Phenomenon" would be a good translation.

          One is the overarching central principle that sweeps in the whole universe and the kitchen sink ... Big B Buddha, perhaps "noumenon" and the "Force" from Star Wars combined into one , the Wholeness beyond all divisions of phenomena ... that which should not be named ...

          One is the Buddha's Teachings about how those phenomena, the universe and reality works as all of the above.

          Thus, it means the Buddha's Teachings and what the Teachings are about.

          Gassho, J

          STLah
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • sosen
            Member
            • Oct 2018
            • 82

            #6
            i found the way Okamura Roshi presents the core themes in this section clear and useful, and like the way he brings the three positions together - it is, it isn't, it is & isn't - and then brings them right back to practice. He explicitly names up the double-bind inherent to even coming to practice - “the desire to become free from delusion or egocentricity is one of the causes of our delusion and egocentricity”, and then how to step past it. This statement really resonated: “This desire to end suffering is another cause of suffering, and the Heart Sutra presents the Buddha’s teachings in a negative way in order to avoid arousing this desire”; it felt like a central principle - leaving no place for the dust to settle. This section also brought ‘mountains and rivers’ to mind.

            _()_
            sosen
            stlah

            Comment

            • Shinshi
              Senior Priest-in-Training
              • Jul 2010
              • 3733

              #7
              Originally posted by Kevin M
              The first three lines of the Genjokoan are surprisingly clear now having been through this chapter and the discussion. The re-translation helps a lot:



              This might be a bit of a technical question, but why do you translate "dharma" as "world" and "things" in the above? Like I thought dharma was more like the teaching or in some contexts "the way" (sort of like "the Tao").

              Gassho,
              Kevin
              ST
              I agree. Honestly I am impressed that the Okumura can take material that seems so obtuse at first glance and make it accessible. And then Jundo, you have such a great knack for adding a slight twist that just pulls it all into focus. Like Kevin I found your translation really helpful.

              Gassho, Shinshi

              SaT-LaH
              空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi

              For Zen students a weed is a treasure. With this attitude, whatever you do, life becomes an art.
              ​— Shunryu Suzuki

              E84I - JAJ

              Comment

              • Tairin
                Member
                • Feb 2016
                • 2875

                #8
                Does this chapter start to come together for you? Are you getting a handle on how these three sentence/perspectives come together?
                Yes and no. I think Okumura does a fantastic job of explaining these passages and shedding light on Dogen’s writing. I find though that I am pretty reliant on his interpretation (yours too Jundo). I don’t think I can get there on my own, at least not yet. The intellectual in me finds that frustrating but then I am here to learn not teach. So I try to put my ego aside and just be with this.


                Tairin
                Sat today and lah
                泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

                Comment

                • Onka
                  Member
                  • May 2019
                  • 1576

                  #9
                  I'll be honest, Okumura both clarifies and confounds, mainly by jumping around a bit too much for me in chapter 3. It feels as though
                  Okumura was anxious about fitting literally everything including the kitchen sink into his commentary. As I may have mentioned earlier somewhere the using of Sanskrit, Pali, Chinese and Japanese terms and characters all with a translation into English has bent my noggin a bit. I have enormous appreciation for the intent of Okumura to be as thorough in their interpretation and explanation of Dogen's Genjokoan, for me it comes across as unnecessarily dense. I will keep at it though but in saying that I wonder if reflecting on Dogen's Genjokoan without commentary and regularly coming back to it as my journey continues would suit my noggin better.
                  Gassho
                  Anna

                  Sat today
                  穏 On (Calm)
                  火 Ka (Fires)
                  They/She.

                  Comment

                  • Jinyo
                    Member
                    • Jan 2012
                    • 1957

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Anna
                    I'll be honest, Okumura both clarifies and confounds, mainly by jumping around a bit too much for me in chapter 3. It feels as though
                    Okumura was anxious about fitting literally everything including the kitchen sink into his commentary. As I may have mentioned earlier somewhere the using of Sanskrit, Pali, Chinese and Japanese terms and characters all with a translation into English has bent my noggin a bit. I have enormous appreciation for the intent of Okumura to be as thorough in their interpretation and explanation of Dogen's Genjokoan, for me it comes across as unnecessarily dense. I will keep at it though but in saying that I wonder if reflecting on Dogen's Genjokoan without commentary and regularly coming back to it as my journey continues would suit my noggin better.
                    Gassho
                    Anna

                    Sat today
                    I think Okumura might agree with you Anna,

                    'You must be really free from what I say and you must inquire into pranja and practice pranja yourself.'

                    I always get a lot from Okumura but find it hard to retain anything other than a very sketchy level - which signifies to me that I'm attaching too much
                    to conceptual thought. The Heart Sutra has always confounded me at some level (but maybe in good company because Red Pine - in his helpfull commentary - says that for years he had put the sutra aside as obtuse and not of much help to actual practice).

                    I think it's useful that Jundo aims at a simplification because stripped down to the bare bones of practice the ideas expressed in The Heart Sutra do not need
                    to be complicated. However, I've yet to come across a translation/simplification that rests with total ease with me. I'm very wary of the notion that we can ever in life experience those three perspectives simultaneously. Perhaps very fleetingly in meditation ....... Accepting that these perspectives exist is maybe more of the essence - I would liken it to an intuitive 'knowing' - maybe that's where the transcendent element (Jundo mentions) comes into play.

                    Anyway - my thoughts on this are not very clear but I always enjoy reading Okumura for those fleeting moments of clarity he gives.

                    Gassho

                    Jinyo

                    Sat Today
                    Last edited by Jinyo; 09-04-2019, 09:16 AM.

                    Comment

                    • Seibu
                      Member
                      • Jan 2019
                      • 271

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Jundo
                      We also learn to see through all the divisions and seeming imperfections of the world, even as they appear to continue to exist in the world as divided, imperfect things. For example, we see many flaws in life and society, yet we also learn to drop all judgments about what is flawed or flawless. Instead, all things become just what they are without our mental criticism, each a kind of shining jewel in its own way, even those things that we usually resist or find abhorrent. However, the uglier and more abhorrent something in life is, such as harm done to children or serious character flaws in ourself, the more deeply buried and hard to see is that shining light. Thus, although this world and all things may shine within (and so, from that perspective, they do so without need of polishing), we still have to keep polishing in our practice to bring out that shine. So, we keep working to fix the problems in our life and this world. In one sense there are no problems to fix, yet in another sense there are many, some very ugly, and we need to keep on our toes. This is a world of flaws, yet not. This is a world of strife, yet not.

                      We can even come, through our Zazen, to experience that face of the world that somehow continues on beyond all the apparent coming and going of things, and then this is a world of birth and death, yet not. There is an overriding Peace and Wholeness that embraces this world in both times of war and times of peace. There is something that keeps on churning away through all the apparent birth and death on the surface, like a sea that continues flowing on and on even as waves appear to rise and fall temporarily on its face. Beyond some simple ideas of one versus many, there is an unbroken Wholeness that sweeps in all the superficially individual things of the universe (including you and me), and that sweeps away birth and death even in a world of birth and death. There is a Beauty that shines as/in/and beyond all this planet's beauty and ugliness. All such ways of seeing—me and you, birth and death, beauty and ugliness as well as something transcendent—become true at once, as one. Thus:
                      I wholeheartedly agree with Shinshi and Tairin on the clarity of both your explanation as well as Okumura's. The more I read the more the pieces fall into place. The part you wrote here, and Okumura's explanation of how we would miss the point by stopping at the commonsense-explanation of Buddhism, really touched me. To me Okumura explains the goallessness of zazen clearly by saying that it is impossible to eliminate ignorance and egocentric desires, and that this only leads to another cycle of samsara. He elegantly exposes the dualist thinking by saying that samsara and nirvana are not two separate things just like you said above. Wow! Just Wow! This has been such an eye-opening chapter. Thank you all for this wonderful study/practice opportunity. I'm deeply grateful.


                      Gassho,
                      Jack
                      Sattoday

                      Comment

                      • Seishin
                        Member
                        • Aug 2016
                        • 1522

                        #12
                        Does this chapter start to come together for you? Are you getting a handle on how these three sentence/perspectives come together?
                        A brief response from me as I get weighed down by the events this week in Westminster.

                        Yes - this last section begins to pulls the previous ones together along with your's and Okumura's explanations. Like many I have come closer to appreciating the intellectual perspective but personally find it hard to apply that practically in day to day live. Is it just a matter of living via the precepts and Eightfold Noble Path, I not sure its just that easy ?
                        Looking forward to your's and Okumura's guidance in that respect.

                        Sat


                        Seishin

                        Sei - Meticulous
                        Shin - Heart

                        Comment

                        • Heikyo
                          Member
                          • Dec 2014
                          • 105

                          #13
                          I like the way this last section emphasizes Dogen's idea of having no goal to practice. I think this is really relevant to the modern world, where the Western culture is often about setting and achieving goals in every aspect of our lives. Here Okumura interprets Dogen's third sentence to say that comparing 'now' (samsara) with a future goal (nirvana) actually just perpetuates samsara. We just practice every day without goals and this means all aspects of our lives become practice. In my experience this is much harder than it sounds - keeping the practice 'alive' as we go about our daily (often stressful) lives is really difficult to do!

                          Sat today
                          LAH

                          Comment

                          • Jundo
                            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 40805

                            #14
                            Because we just began all the Jukai readings and Ango activities, l think we will extend here one more week before moving on. l hope that is okay. No rush.

                            Gassho, J

                            STLah
                            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                            Comment

                            • Seishin
                              Member
                              • Aug 2016
                              • 1522

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Jundo
                              Because we just began all the Jukai readings and Ango activities, l think we will extend here one more week before moving on. l hope that is okay. No rush.

                              Gassho, J

                              STLah
                              Cool

                              Sat / lah


                              Seishin

                              Sei - Meticulous
                              Shin - Heart

                              Comment

                              Working...