Opening the Hand of Thought - Chapter 7 Part 2

[Rich]

Great idea! No worries. Plain with honey. Thanks.

SAT today

[Rich]

Aha! Most interesting reading the comments about the bodhisattva. It seems most people who commented are at least a little uncomfortable with the concept, and I'd like to say something about that. The concept of bodhisattva is not, to my knowledge, mentioned in the Pali Canon which is probably as close as we can get to what the Buddha actually said. (I'm only half way through the Canon, so please correct me if you've found the concept there.) The bodhisattva is largely a Mahayana invention and is famously evident in "The Lotus Sutra" where they are all over the place. This Sutra was written many hundreds of years after the Buddha lived, and its origin and authors are unknown. The point being there is no certainty at all that the Lotus is even something the Buddha taught, even though it is literally revered in many parts of Asia today. I, for one, don't believe this Sutra is the Buddha's. The developers of Mahayana were pretty interested in a form of salvation whether it was through becoming a bodhisattva or eventually a buddha. "The Lotus Sutra" emphasizes both. I think the reason many of us are uncomfortable with the bodhisattva concept is because it is nearer the Judeo-Christian concepts of salvation and good works than it is the heart of Buddhism. There, I've gone and done it -- opened the box. Would be interested in your comments. Forest Dweller ^^ForestSatToday^^

Some bbackground.
The big schism happened about 400-500 years after Gautama Buddha passed. The Mahayana - greater vehicle broke away from the Hinayana - lesser vehicle. In the hinayana the enlightened person was an arhat. The arhat had complete freedom to cross to the other shore alone. They didn't have to take anyone but they could if someone followed them. Their compassion was spontaneous, not with desire or attachment. The term lesser vehicle refers to numbers not inferiority.
The Mahayana said that the enlightened person - the bodhisattva does not cross to the other shore until all beings are saved. The bodhisattva has immense compassion and leading others to enlightenment is the greater vehicle.
Around the year 500 the Mahayanist Bodhidharma came from India to China.

SAT today

[Eishuu]

This might be a silly question, but it's been rattling round my head for a while. I understand the Bodhissatva as an ideal of compassion and particularly the compassion that arises seeing that sentient beings are suffering because they are not enlightened, but in terms of the Bodhissatva Vow to save all sentient beings what if some sentient beings don't want to be saved? Does the Bodhissatva save them anyway without asking their permission? Like in the Matrix when Cypher would rather stay plugged in and eat pretend steak than wake up...isn't it a choice to go looking for the nature of reality rather than focusing on happiness in a samsaric sense? I really don't like religions that are evangelical and constantly trying to convert everybody whether they like it or not. Am I taking this too literally?

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[Jishin]

Opening the Hand of Thought - Chapter 7 Part 2

Lucy,

Maybe it goes something like this:

When the butterfly beats its wings, Japan is affected by a gentle breeze across the world. In Bendowa Dogen talks about one moment of Zazen imperceptibly enlightening the entire world. Maybe you become nicer and more aware of good and bad and the world and universe becomes more aware of itself along with you when you grab you some Zazen?

Who knows?

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Rich]

The Great Bodhisattva Way
By Zen Master Seung Sahn




One, two, three. Where do these numbers come from? You already understand. Children want candy; business people want money; scholars want to become famous. There are many kinds of people and many directions. Where do they finally go?

If you attain this point, you attain human nature and universal substance. If you attain universal substance, you can see and hear clearly, and your emotions, will, and wisdom can function correctly. Then your life is correct and you can help all beings. This is called the Great Bodhisattva Way.


By Zen Master Seung Sahn

[Jundo]

This might be a silly question, but it's been rattling round my head for a while. I understand the Bodhissatva as an ideal of compassion and particularly the compassion that arises seeing that sentient beings are suffering because they are not enlightened, but in terms of the Bodhissatva Vow to save all sentient beings what if some sentient beings don't want to be saved? Does the Bodhissatva save them anyway without asking their permission? Like in the Matrix when Cypher would rather stay plugged in and eat pretend steak than wake up...isn't it a choice to go looking for the nature of reality rather than focusing on happiness in a samsaric sense? I really don't like religions that are evangelical and constantly trying to convert everybody whether they like it or not. Am I taking this too literally?

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

Hmmm. Well, I suppose the traditional Buddhist answer would be that one makes the Path available and someday, in this life or another, their Karma would lead them to be ready to walk it! It might not be soon, but someday ... for all have the potential within.

In the meantime, we do the best to make the world, and everyone's lot, better. I used to volunteer for hospice. One could do nothing to rescue all the patients in their difficult straights, but one could do much to make their way better and easier.

I do not believe in aggressive proselytizing, or pressuring people. However, I do believe in making resources and opportunities available. One can plant a seed and, when the time is right, it will grow. If it does not help everyone in this world, it will help some. Those who need it, will make use of it and benefit. Others will go another way. In our Vow, we try ... although sentient beings are numberless and delusions inexaustible.



Gassho, J


SatToday

[Jishin]

The Great Bodhisattva Way
By Zen Master Seung Sahn




One, two, three. Where do these numbers come from? You already understand. Children want candy; business people want money; scholars want to become famous. There are many kinds of people and many directions. Where do they finally go?

If you attain this point, you attain human nature and universal substance. If you attain universal substance, you can see and hear clearly, and your emotions, will, and wisdom can function correctly. Then your life is correct and you can help all beings. This is called the Great Bodhisattva Way.


By Zen Master Seung Sahn

You know too much. Whack! Only go straight — don't know, attain nothing- mind, use nothing mind, and save all beings from suffering. [emoji12]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[AlanLa]

Bodhisattva is a simple label for a complex process. I don't want to be a label, but I have no problem trying to live up to that process -- with the understanding that I am going to fail, of course. I like the Bodhisattva vow and recite it almost every day because I treat it as a process, not an outcome. That taking it actually makes me a Bodhisattva like Kannon, for instance, never even enters my mind. I find that idea silly. Everything in this second section of the chapter, the three minds, being an adult, etc., is all about process. I think it best to accept it as practice, as a process, an aim, not always actually hitting of the target -- though that might happen from time to time, which is a good thing.

Was Guixing a tightwad SOB or a great teacher? Yes!
Was Fayuan a simple thief or Bodhisattva? Yes!
Were both of their actions wrong or right? Yes!
Do people need to be saved or are they already saved? Yes!
Do they still have pennies in Canada or not? Yes!
Don't get trapped by polarities!

[Hoseki]

This might be a silly question, but it's been rattling round my head for a while. I understand the Bodhissatva as an ideal of compassion and particularly the compassion that arises seeing that sentient beings are suffering because they are not enlightened, but in terms of the Bodhissatva Vow to save all sentient beings what if some sentient beings don't want to be saved? Does the Bodhissatva save them anyway without asking their permission? Like in the Matrix when Cypher would rather stay plugged in and eat pretend steak than wake up...isn't it a choice to go looking for the nature of reality rather than focusing on happiness in a samsaric sense? I really don't like religions that are evangelical and constantly trying to convert everybody whether they like it or not. Am I taking this too literally?

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

Hi Lucy,

For what its worth, I don't think you can save everybody. Nor can you help everybody lessen their suffering. But you can try to help the people around you. Sometimes that might mean providing the skinny on some relevant concept from the History of Buddhism. Other times, its a warm cup of tea with a biscuit or maybe even a kick in the arse! The vow to save all sentient beings is more like the hand on a compass that points north. You never get to the"North" but you do keep moving in a northward direction. The Bodhisattva is a being of action and while proselytizing is certainly an action it doesn't fill an empty belly.

At least that what I think about when I think of the vows.

Gassho
Adam
Sat today

[Joyo]

This might be a silly question, but it's been rattling round my head for a while. I understand the Bodhissatva as an ideal of compassion and particularly the compassion that arises seeing that sentient beings are suffering because they are not enlightened, but in terms of the Bodhissatva Vow to save all sentient beings what if some sentient beings don't want to be saved? Does the Bodhissatva save them anyway without asking their permission? Like in the Matrix when Cypher would rather stay plugged in and eat pretend steak than wake up...isn't it a choice to go looking for the nature of reality rather than focusing on happiness in a samsaric sense? I really don't like religions that are evangelical and constantly trying to convert everybody whether they like it or not. Am I taking this too literally?

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

I'd say people need the freedom to choose and their karma will follow. Some of the greatest lessons I've learned are through my own mistakes. In a sense, we are all suffering because we are not enlightened.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Eishuu]

Really great responses. Lots to think about. Thank you all.

Gassho
Lucy
sat today

[Byrne]

infinite means everything eventually is everything so long as you give it enough time to ripen. So some beings don't want to be saved. No biggie. Patience is a virtue. Infinity is pretty powerful stuff.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Eishuu]

Thank you Byrne.

Lucy

[Jakuden]

As for being called a Bodhisattva I think its neat and appropriate when one is doing the work of a Bodhisattva. When I'm helping an old lady across the street, Bodhisattva. When I'm using the washroom? Nope, just a dude using a washroom.
Identity words when utilized skillfully can be a powerful motivator for action. We will have opportunities in our life to be a Bodhisattva and we should take them! That part of the stuff about the vows.

This is pretty much my view. I've been following this thread without much to say, but wanted to thank everyone for helping me see "Bodhisattva" from every possible angle.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Joyo]

I have to admit, I've been trying to **get** this book, but I don't get it. And the more I let that go and quit trying, the more I think I'm beginning to understand, but it's hard to put it into words.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today