Opening the Hand of Thought - Chapter 7 Part 1

[Kyotai]

Thank you Risho. Your words have really resonated with me.

Gassho, Kyotai
Sat today

[Risho]

Thank you

Awesome talk - thank you for that link Jundo

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Kyotai]

I just happened to hear a wonderful short public radio interview with a Catholic monk and hermit who has also practiced Zazen for years ... and he explains why.

Worth a listen ...

http://www.ttbook.org/book/david-steindl-rast-reflects-life-benedictine-monk

Gassho, J

SatToday

Thank you for this link Jundo. This interview was fascinating and very helpful for me.

Gassho, Kyotai
sat today

[Washin]

http://www.ttbook.org/book/david-ste...nedictine-monk

Thank you for the link, Jundo. I listened to the interview twice and did enjoy it.

"Thy will be done"

Thank you for the words of wisdom, Risho.

Gassho
Washin
sat-today

[Rich]

Thanks for the link.
Amen

SAT today

[Doshin]

Risho,

You said it all very well and though I make no claim to be a Christian I relate to all you said. I left the church over a half century ago but I am married to a good Christian, a person who inspires others by her good deeds. I began to drift away from the religion of my parents (though I am not sure what their beliefs really were because they were gone long before I was wise enough to ask) because I was surrounded by so many then and more now, who profess to be Christians but their behavior far from supports their assertions. I am convinced Christ, like some other religious leaders, was a great teacher whose presence has helped many. I am not surprised by the commonality of the underlying values of good behavior in many of the world religions, they all contain wisdom gathered from tens of thousands of years of our species trying to live together. I don't pray but I live with and sit with the hope that those religious and non-religious values of good will rise, especially now in a world in so much need.

Gassho
Doshin
Sattoday

[ForestDweller]

Everyone seems focused on the Christian-Buddhist topic. That's all well and good. Still, I found something else interesting about the first half of the chapter. Here it is.

“Our ideas about a mind to be trained or a body to be made healthy are expressions of the view of existence, which presupposes that there are things that can be accumulated.” Some of us rack up hours of zazen as if we were keeping score instead of “just sitting.” The funny thing about this and other performance-driven behaviors in the spiritual life is that it assumes someone is keeping score, when in reality, we are almost certainly the only ones paying attention. If there is no “authority outside the true self,” then no judge, teacher or other scorekeeper has any meaning in practice. “Discovering the life within the self,” is far too busy to worry about accumulating anything, in that we ideally will treat every encounter as if our lives depended on it. Such intensity does not, however, involve any sacrifice, as Uchiyama points out. Only in religions where some authoritative figure is awatch and aware is there any reason to compromise authenticity for some merit on an imaginary scoreboard. Buddhism permits far more freedom and far less sacrifice than this dynamic. “Buddhism looks at life prior to the division of I and thou.” How freeing! Everything is “nothing but our own life,” and our motivation to act comes from “a spirit of looking after everything as our own life.” What a marvelous proposition! What an amazing way to live! ^^ForestSatToday-25 degrees^^ but who's keeping score? - CatherineS

[Tai Shi]

My friend Forest Dweller makes a point about Uchiyama that I missed, and a point that I am aware of, "But at my back I always hear/Times winged chariot hurrying near/And yonder all before us lie/Deserts of vast eternity." Andrew Marvel, To His Coy Mistress, and Marvel echoes what Uchiyama says that we do not live in the here and now, that the hound of time be frets our every move unless we stop and sit, and allow the moment to unfold. When I was young, first it was parties, then degrees, then the "hope" of success, and now moments of meditation, of sitting for more, and leading to that was a fruitless search for meaning and then Jesus and God, not to speak of the Holy Ghost, some mysterious spirit that made me make no sense. What drove me to stop was this Holy Ghost for I found tongues distasteful. So there is a point in which language of any sort cannot explain; it wrestles with thought and distinction and reason, and it chalks up points. I began my practice with a way of stepping out of pain, and now just stepping out at the still point of the turning world.

Elgwyn
Tai Shi
Calm Poetry
sat today
Gassho

[Risho]

Catherine and Elgwyn,

Thank you

Gassho

Risho
-sattoday

[Byrne]

The desert fathers and mothers were Egyptian monastics from the 3rd century. They had this to say:

"Joseph asked Poemen, ‘Tell me how to become a monk.’ He said, ‘If you want to find rest in this life and the next, say at every moment, “Who am I?” and judge no one.’"

Sounds kinda Buddhist to me. At least, it's the same starting point. Where it can go from there varies wildly and the speculation is endless.

I think comparing Buddhism to Christianity is getting a little sweaty in the west. Too many people are looking at Buddhism for what it isn't rather than what it is. The issue of God and Buddhism can be very distracting from he purpose of Buddhism. It's like fretting over the lack of dairy products in Japanese food.

Uchiyama seems like a really open minded and genuinely curious guy. I didn't personally (big emphasis on the word "personally") think much about his analogies between Christianity and Buddhism. What I do admire is his sincerity in trying to reach out to many different people in ways they can relate to.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Rich]

Catherine and Elgwyn,



Thank you



Gassho



Risho

-sattoday

And Byrne.
Enjoyed the comments.

SAT today

[Jinyo]

I just happened to hear a wonderful short public radio interview with a Catholic monk and hermit who has also practiced Zazen for years ... and he explains why.

Worth a listen ...

http://www.ttbook.org/book/david-steindl-rast-reflects-life-benedictine-monk

Gassho, J

SatToday

Thanks for this - have just ordered a couple of David Steindl-Rast's books.

My view has shifted considerably the past few years and I'm now all for inter-faith dialogue. I do feel Zen is a religion but thinking that requires 'opening the hand of thought' in a very literal way and not to cling to fixed notions of what the word 'religion' or 'God' means. Our understanding both at a personal level and shared level is truly a work in progress.

I do feel there is a very strong link between Zazen and prayer and it would be very interesting to be able to swop minds with a person engaged in prayer. Would the touchstone to the 'ineffable' be experienced the same - when someone who prays explains that they feel in connection with 'God' - can speak to 'God' is that a very different experience to the touchstone of universal mind? Is Zazen really more direct than prayer?

Strip away the connotations of words - what is left?

In the section on Repentance and Vow - I feel Uchiyama falls into a degree of philosophical gesturing. I'm not sure the self in Zazen is really that different to the 'ideal' Christian self. In the world of I/thou - we actualize this notion of unity through ethics - and there is very little difference between Buddhist and Christian ethics.

'taking as reality that which precedes division' is a path that can travelled in many ways. I'm also not convinced that living by Buddhist ethics is not dependent on sacrifice. Taking the relationship between mother and child as his example Uchiyama falls into the same idealization as Thich Nhat Hahn often does (as much as I admire his teachings).

however - Uchiyama does reflect on our total inability to fulfil our vow -- thus the importance of repentance. Repentance is integral to the Catholic religion - do we seek forgiveness in Zazen - if so - from where?

Again - I would like to swop minds with the person praying

Thanks for an interesting thread,

Gassho

Willow/Jinyo

sat/prayed today

[Rich]

I think Buddha got it more right than Jesus. Buddha said drop desire and seeking, just look inside and be aware, just sit. Jesus said seek and ye shall find and didn't give direction on meditation .

SAT today

[Mp]

I think Buddha got it more right than Jesus. Buddha said drop desire and seeking, just look inside and be aware, just sit. Jesus said seek and ye shall find and didn't give direction on meditation .

SAT today

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Jinyo]

I just happened to hear a wonderful short public radio interview with a Catholic monk and hermit who has also practiced Zazen for years ... and he explains why.

Worth a listen ...

http://www.ttbook.org/book/david-steindl-rast-reflects-life-benedictine-monk

Gassho, J

SatToday

Have been reading a book by David Steindl - Rast (Music of Silence) - it certainly chimes with Buddhism.

He also has a web site based on the practice of gratitude - remarkable for his age (now 90) - with some background on his Buddhist teachers.

http://www.gratefulness.org/brother-david/about-brother-david/

Gassho

Willow/Jinyo

sat today